The same idea from different points of view, yes.
What is meant by being "grafted in" and "cut off?"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Apr 15, 2011.
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So, when Paul speaks of Jews being cut off, he is saying that they have been refusing his holding out his hands all day long (Rom 10:21), thus they have had the revelation but have refused it and grown hard to it, so its being cut off. No more revelation. This is why Israel is blinded from the gospel (spirit of stupor, parabolic language). But, this is a temporary hardening. They can be provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles and come to faith (Rm 11:14). They can leave their unbelief and be grafted back in (join the church) and here God's revelation again.
The Gentiles have not been getting the special revelation of God all these years, but now it is being sent to them (grafted in to the revelation by which they too can enter covenant), and they are hardened to it, "they will listen." (Acts 28:28) But if they do what Israel did and rebel against the revelation they too might be cut off from the revelation (tree).
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But there's more: You must believe in plural Israels, because the natural branches being cut off are plural.
It's obvious the branches are individuals, the tree is a nation, and the root is Christ. In a variation of this theme, as kyredneck pointed out, Christ said, "Ye are the branches."
But Israel hasn't been cast off. Paul holds his own conversion up as proof of that. He is a natural branch, but he stands by faith. So Israel hasn't been cut off. Only those who don't stand by faith are cut off.
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So, lets take an individual Jew through the process.
1. God sends him prophets, priests, kings and scriptures...He holds out his hands to him (Rm. 10:21) desiring to gather him but he is unwilling (Matt 23:37). =This BRANCH is grafted in at this point.
2. His heart grows calloused and hardened to the revelation of God.
3. God sends the messiah, but keeps this Jew in darkness (hardens him so he can't see the obvious truth). = This BRANCH is cut off from the revelation
4. The Jew sees the change in the Gentile believers and is provoked by envy. His will is provoked and he examines the truth of the gospel. He believes and is grafted back in. = This "natural" BRANCH is grafted back into the tree
See, I'm fine with taking this individually. Why wouldn't I be?
And the reason I have no problem with the tree being viewed as "true Israel" is because Israel is the means through which God revealed himself for generations, and as I stated, I believe the tree represents the revelation by which men can relate (covenant) with God.
Proof that God effectually calls his divinely appointed messengers (using outward means) is not proof that God effectually calls certain individuals in their audience (through secret inward means).
I would say that ingrafted branches are potential believers, while cut off branches are in rebellion and need to be provoked. -
[snip extraneous verbage]
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I can go further and say that there was a time when there was no root, just an olive pit. Can I say there was a time when there was no Christ?
Deal with the picture that Paul painted. Don't add or take away from it. -
Couldn't it just be that the tree represents the revelation of God by which men respond either in faith or unbelief? [Note: you did not say means, you said the tree was the revelation.] Special revelation came through Israel thus making them the natural branches, but now the revelation is coming through the church which the Gentiles are joining in great numbers...being grafted into the revelation of God so as to respond either in his "kindness" or in unbelief and pride.[And so people are branches grafted into a revelation?]You don't know what the heck you're talking about and you're just simply revising it as you go.
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By your interpretation, they couldn't have been really cut off from the tree because it would be taking the analogy too far to even suggest that they were really ever attached to begin with. I'm sorry, but that is not willing to read the clear intent of the analogy. What else could be meant regarding being cut off if it doesn't imply they were once attached? What are they cut off of if not the tree? -
In post 43 I also expounded saying, "I actually don't have a problem referring to the tree as true Israel, because as I stated earlier, I believe the tree represent the means through which God reveals himself. Just as man needs a conduit (prophets, scripture, apostles, church etc) by which God communicates to us, so too a branch needs a tree and root to receive its sustenance." And it was to this quote you accused me of equating "the Church or the Nation with divine revelation." I think you just misunderstood, but now hopefully you are understanding.
Now, either those INDIVIDUALS who have been grafted in have the POTENTIAL of being cut off, or Paul is bluffing rending this analogy and warning meaningless.
Blessings to you. -
The Gospel Church is an entity. It's the tree. The operations of the church are not represented. The church does not graft in or cut off. It's the Father Who does that.
We simply have the Israel of God, the Church, in three parts; the root, the fatness and the branches. The branches are from all the families of the earth, they stand by faith, and God is no respecter of persons.
That's all there is and there ain't no more.
I see no reason to persue unwarranted speculation. :wavey: -
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The Gospel church is the Israel of God as Gill, and I, understand Galatians 6:16:
The Gospel church is so called for its excellency the olive tree being a choice tree, as they were a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; for its fruitfulness, bringing forth berries that are wholesome, delightful, and useful, so the saints are filled with the fruits of grace, and good works, which are by Christ to the praise and glory of God; for its beauty when laden with fruit, so a Gospel church is beautiful maintaining the purity of Gospel doctrine, discipline, worship and conversation; "his beauty shall be as the olive tree", ( Hosea 14:6 ) ; see ( Jeremiah 11:16 ) ; and for its verdure and durableness, and growing on the mountains, all which may denote the continuance and firmness of the church of Christ. Now the Gentiles being grafted into a Gospel church state with the believing Jews, partook of the same root and fatness as they did, being built upon the same "foundation of the apostles prophets", ( Ephesians 2:20 ) ; rooted, grounded, and built up in the same church state they enjoyed the same privileges, had the doctrines of Christ and his apostles preached to them, communicated with them in the ordinances of the Gospel, and were satisfied with the goodness and fatness of the house of God; for they became "fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the Gospel", ( Ephesians 3:6 )
which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see ( 1 Corinthians 10:18 ) . The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"; which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh.It is clear that the tree represents an entity, and it is doubly clear that Gil expounds upon it as such. Just as Christ is the true Priest, Offering and Altar, The Gospel church is the true Israel, the true propriety of God, not national nor geo-political Israel.
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How else can you take Gill's quote, "the Gospel was preached to them, they despise it, contradicted, and blasphemed it; so that it pleased God to take it wholly away from them?"
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