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Featured What Was Adam Pre-Fall

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by davidtaylorjr, Feb 10, 2020.

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  1. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's a massive misunderstanding, JonC.
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    No. That was actually his argument on another topic about free-will. I'm not saying I agree, but the argument itself is inconsistent (Adam had spiritual life but lost it due to his free-will places what Scripture calls the will of the flesh over this "spiritual life").
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I put this on another thread just now, but I think it belongs here (too many similar threads!)
    Colossians 3:10 came to mind.
    '.....And have put on the new man [NASB 'self'] who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.' [Ephesians 4:24 is similar]
    This is speaking of Christians and they are being renewed or renovated so that they are made like God, according to His image., in accordance with how God made man in the beginning. So Adam and Eve were given the true knowledge of God when they were created, and this knowledge is restored to believers. Therefore it must have been lost at the Fall.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Another issue is the Tree of Life.

    This is a reason I believe Adam did not possess spiritual life (I associate the Tree of Life with spiritual life). Had Adam "eaten" of this tree he would have everlasting life.

    So I view Adam as created flesh (with a human spirit Scripture calls "the flesh" in the NT). Adam could freely eat of the Tree of Life or disobey and eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam was tempted by his desires and transgressed God's command. Sin is the reason Adam was separated from the Tree of Life. Had Adam eaten of that tree he would not have eaten of the other (whoever eats of the Tree of Life has everlasting life).
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    What do you think about the Tree of Life (that gives everlasting life)?

    I tend to think of Adam as created innocent with a human spirit. There are two choices - death and life. Adam chose death.

    I think when we create these expansive narratives we miss the point of Scripture and allow theory to trump what Scripture is telling us.
     
  6. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Post for me again the verses you use to define Spiritual Life.
     
  7. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't that contradict your definition of Spiritual life?
     
  8. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I have not claimed that there was no such thing until after the fall.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonShaff,

    Hello JonS....how have you been?

    1 cor15 is dealing with this question....

    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

    It is not about Adam as far as his spirit is concerned.
    First a physical body, then a spiritual body

     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    No. I view Spiritual life as the Spirit of God indwelling man. I do not believe either Tree to magic trees. In my understanding Adam was created with a human spirit and ultimately it was demonstrated that human spirits do not merit divine righteousness (Adam was created in the image of God but still less than God). He had a choice but he was always going to "miss the mark". Sin separates man from God. Logically there was a time prior to sin that Adam was sinless (Adam was created "upright", God did not author Adam's sin). This does not necessitate two human natures in Adam.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The issue is the passage itself is not looking at Adam but Christ. Adam is the natural in the passage, Christ the spiritual. You horribly skew that passage by reading into it your theology.
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I used several. God will remove man's heart of stone and give him a new heart, a new spirit, put His spirit in them (I believe this is speaking of one thing - the new birth). Christ became a life-giving Spirit. First is the natural (Adam), second the spiritual (Christ). Spiritual life is of the "imperishable seed". Christ is this Life.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Evidently this is another passage you do not understand.
    Speaking of Adam first having a physical body, then a spiritual body.
    Verse 44 is very clear. Did you not read this verse?
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Again, I am not sure why you have to insult me every time I ask you a question.

    The reason I am asking is not that I do not understand the verse but that I understand the verse as typically interpreted by Christian commentators to be dealing with the order of resurrection. The body which is sown is not the body which is to be. The body is sown a natural body and is raised a spiritual body. The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life giving spirit. The spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.

    I have not encountered the interpretation that you offer. I am sure that your interpretation is extraordinarily clear to you, but as it departs from the normal reading of the passage I am asking you how you arrive at your conclusion.

    In this passage you view the "last Adam" which became "a life giving spirit" to Adam rather than Christ. What I am suggesting is that you may be viewing this verse through a formed theory and twisting what the verse is saying to suit your philosophy rather than holding to what is actually in Scripture. Since you depart from the normal reading and from most (all that I know of) Christian interpretations of this passage I think it reasonable to ask how you arrive at your interpretation.
     
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  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Your response, paraphrased:

    #5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE;
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes, that is what he is saying. But he could say it without the insults.

    I never claimed to be the most astute fella. But I know which end of the knife not to hold (the pointy end), so I get by.

    I do not know why he has to start every reply with an insult. I guess it's the Calvinism showing through :p .
     
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    This part of the passage is what i really was trying to highlight concerning the topic of this thread. I do not believe God is restoring us back to Adam, nor do i believe the Scriptures teach that. I believe that Christ gave us life and that is something unique and different from what happened in the Garden. Adam was a part of physical Creation. We are a part of the Eternal Creation in Christ. Once again, we are not getting restored back to Adam--we are being made new in Christ. This is the plain teachings of Scripture. I pray this helps.
     
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I think it is something else hindering the understanding ITL.
    The verse could not be clearer.
    There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body.
    Natural first, then the Spiritual.
    Jesus took upon Himself a body of flesh,that could die, and be raised as the first fruits out from among the dead
    Hebrews2:11-16
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, just that before he became spiritually dead in his sin nature, adam had what we would call real free will!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam was glorious when first created though, correct?
     
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