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Featured What Was God Thinking?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Aaron, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    cross plan.jpg

    For those who say that God "looked down the corridors of time" :Roflmao and merely provided the Cross as a remedy to something that would happen to His plan (and He didn't have to look far. Maybe you should call it a "cubbyhole of time.") ...

    What was His original plan? To frolic naked in a garden paradise till the world was over populated?
     
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  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We dont now. So you tell us.
     
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The Cross was always His plan. I think the point that you can't present an alternative reveals the weakness of your position, if you are saying it wasn't.
     
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  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    @Aaron , do you think non-Calvinists actually believe the Cross was not always part of God's redemptive plan? Sure. Once we get into the weeds of the conversation we have plenty to disagree with them about election and predestination but I am not sure I would start a dialog saying they do not believe the Cross was not always part of God's plan.
     
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  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Uh, well actually I was just kinda going along with your Looney Toons position so in this particular case i have no position due to your nonsensical illustration.

    On the other hand apart from observing our helpless and hopeless estate as God "looked down the corridors of time" the only scriptural criteria for our salvation seems to be "after the counsel of his own will" of which counsel we have no certain revelation concerning the trialogue within the Godhead.

    Ephesians1
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
     
    #5 HankD, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Not part...THE plan. The reason this world was created. The Main Event.
     
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  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    OK. Semantics. The Cross is God's plan. But plan for what? The redemption of His elect. The Cross is of no necessity if there is nothing to redeem.
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works. Titus 2
     
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Col 1
     
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  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    So who is going to benefit from the cross?... Brother Glen:)

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


    The sheep of God show the attributes of God and his Son Jesus Christ!
     
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  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    God's Plan was to create men who would genuinely love Him. He gave man his own dominion knowing full well that man would sin. Love is a complicated thing. In order for it to be the real thing. The man had to have a choice to love and obey or disobey and not love God. Obedience translates love disobedience is not love.
    Man sinned and for this reconciliation was needed. God knew it would happen when He made man. It wasn't a matter of looking down the corridors of time to see what man would do because God already knew about it all before creation. He knew He would have to send a redeemer to reconcile man away from his sins. The Cross is just a symbol now it cannot save. Only the redeemer who died on it can save.
    I believe man must choose to believe in Christ to be saved and man's believing is dependent on the Holy Spirit's work of convincing man of Christ and convicting man of his sins.
    All this was planned before the beginning around the things God knew would happen. All the things that has come and gone from man. God knew and reacted to bring about what He wanted from man. Somethings are predetermined to happen but not all things. They happen to bring about results that God wanted. .
    Man still has dominion over his own life choices, which is necessary for genuine love.
    All this and more has happened since creation for a reason and that is love.
    MB
     
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  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Considering the text you've chosen both the givers and receivers benefitted, but, we know it's more blessed to give than to receive, right? :)
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to urge you to re-think what you've stated here, Aaron.

    Even in jest I would not have made such a comment.
    I realize that you were only being tongue-in-cheek...

    But I for one would have never even come close to suggesting such a thing.:Speechless
    Please think about how you present the Lord in your posts, sir, so as to bring only glory and honor to His name.
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Nov 29, 2019
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  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
    11 and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
    ( Philippians 2:5-10 ).

    As I see it, there was more to the cross than just the redemption of His elect.
    It brings glory to Himself, and beyond that, glory to God the Father.

    To exalt His Son leads to His exaltation.:)
     
    #14 Dave Gilbert, Nov 29, 2019
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  15. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That the Cross brings glory to God is not in question. The point still stands. If there was nothing to redeem there would have been no need for the Cross.
     
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  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    OK, I see your point and I agree.:)
     
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  17. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I've often thought this was true, but does Scripture declare this, or can it be understood out of it?

    If so, please show me.
     
  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    @Aaron
    Let's telescope out a bit.

    Everything that He has done, brings glory to God.

    The creation of man,
    man sinning and alienating ourselves from Him thereby being put into the position of needing a Saviour,
    the elect glorifying God for their unspeakable gift of eternal life,
    God's righteous judgment of sinners by His Son,
    Etc.

    Was the cross the main reason God created the Heavens and the earth?
    I'd have to say "no".
    His glorification was.

    For example,
    Lucifer wants worship and to be like the Most High, but cannot do anything truly miraculous to warrant it, from my perspective and from what I see in Scripture.

    The Lord guarantees worship based on everything He is and has done,
    while Satan ( the adversary ) guarantees that he will be looked at "narrowly" by many ( Isaiah 14:12-21 ) based on what he has done.

    Lucifer will not get the worship he wants,
    and the Lord will get the worship He deserves and commands.

    Was the cross the main event?
    No, the Lord Himself, is.;)
     
    #18 Dave Gilbert, Nov 29, 2019
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  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Anthropomorphic assumptions are made. God is not an idiot nor does he rely on "PLANS" that is like a crutch for walking. "God's Plan" cannot let God know what is going on and what is his desire, because God always knows what is going on and what is his desire. You can read he makes plans and has plans for you. that doesn't mean there is a old man walking around with blueprints with your name on it.

    He could play corridor of time if he wants to.

    Jeremiah 32

    33“They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction. 34“But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

    35“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    It never entered God's mind? God didn't see it coming? God doesn't know how Total Depravity works? Folks resist God's instruction....AGAIN AND AGAIN?

    Things had to explained in ways a more ordinary person can grasp at.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Oh my achin' back! 'Purpose,' then (though 'plan' is an eminently fit word for 'purpose,' as the literate already know). The Cross was always the purpose for the creation of the earth.
     
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