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When did regeneration occur?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AdamL, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well do you tie them up in a chair and then preach the gospel to them?

    Do you force it down their throats?

    Or do they make a CHOICE to stop and listen to you?

    Did you decide to listen to the gospel or was it at gunpoint?


    Calvinist say regeneration doesn't register until after receiving the gospel?

    Making that choice to stop and listen and pay any mind to the gospel on the man.


    The entire point is the UNREGENERATE makes a choice to LISTEN to the gospel. Which doesn't guarantee his election,

    But if he always refuses to listen to the gospel it GUARANTEES his damnation.
     
  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    You will find that not all Calvinists would agree that there is a, "well-meant" offer to all who hear the gospel, but I'm not one of them. I belive, just as you do, that the good news is willfully rejected by all but the elect.
     
  3. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    The great error is the appeal or altar call system. Where the grace of God is attempted to be overturned by the pressure of man.

    Anyway I am not a Calvinist. I just believe what the Word of God says.
     
  4. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    There was a man in Scotland who did not want to hear preaching but thought he should go to Church. He used to creep in late and go into the pew at the back and hid there with his fingers in his ears. One Sunday a wasp buzzed round his head and he took his fingers out to swipe it away. As he did so, he heard the words, "He that has an ear, let him hear." He listened to the rest of the sermon and was saved.

    An Irish man who spent his early years, 1-16 in a Catholic orphanage, He had cathloicism drummed into him. He eventually came to England and took a room in Ashford. One Sunday he was sitting watching Songs Of Praise on the TV with his landlord, when someone read from the Bible. He said to the landlord, "I'm not watching this rubbish, I'm going down the pub" He said that as he was passing a small Baptist Chapel, he turned and walked in. He told me he had no intention to go in and, didn't know why he did, and had been told by others not to go there as it was a cult. As he walked in the door the preacher was quoting the same scripture he had heard on TV. He listened to the rest of the sermon and was saved. He became a member of the church and also of a local male Voice Praise Choir.

    Were these coincidences of God drawing people to him?
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The primary issue I would suggest study of would be when men began to be born again in the first place. Regeneration is the promise of God in the Old Testament and received when the Comforter was sent, and the New Covenant established. It is when Christ came that men then began to be reconciled to God in eternal union (indwelling, as opposed to the filling of the Old Testament (filling still takes place among those indwelt)).

    Cornelius is the easier of the two to clarify, because we have a detailed account plus Peter's own testimony as to what took place. I will try to make this as brief as I can, and just hit the highlights (though I would suggest a thorough study of the entire event).

    To lay the background (of course from my perspective, you can judge for yourself), I would suggest that relationship with God has always been possible for men, and knowledge of God is given in three primary ways:

    1. The internal witness of God;

    2. The testimony of Creation;

    3. Direct revelation (God speaking to men directly, God speaking to men through men, God speaking to men through the Written Word, and God speaking directly to the hearts of men).

    When we consider Cornelius, we don't take a caricature approach and consider all Jews were good guys, and all Romans were bad guys, because Cornelius was a man regarded by God and men. God speaks to him and tells Him to go get Peter (Acts 10:1-5). Now I am going to jump ahead to Chapter 11 because Peter's description of events is critical to understanding Chapter Ten:


    Acts 11:13-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.



    The bottom line is that Peter states his purpose was to go and speak to Cornelius...words.

    And those words by which Cornelius was saved was the Gospel of Christ, which is the only means by which one can be born again. Here is the Gospel of Christ as preached by Peter:


    Acts 10:34-40
    King James Version (KJV)

    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

    37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;



    This is what happened:


    Acts 10:44-45
    King James Version (KJV)

    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.



    Now here is where everybody divides: what does it mean "the Holy Ghost fell on them?" Luckily Peter tells us, and I will pick up from the previous quote (though again recommend going back and reading the fuller context):


    Acts 11:14-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    Peter defines for us what is meant by the Holy Ghost falling on Cornelius and his family...they are baptized with the Holy Ghost, which if you remember was not something that had happened to the disciples of Christ during His earthly ministry (Acts 1:4-5). What is taking place is the fulfillment of God's promise in the Old Testament to put His Spirit within men (which did not occur in the Old Testament, including during Christ's Ministry among men). This is Christ baptizing men with the Holy Ghost, as prophesied by John. It is the fulfillment of Christ's teaching in John 14 that He would send the Comforter, Who would then be "In" the disciples, and this forever, rather than simply with them (the filling).

    Secondly we understand that this is the moment Cornelius is saved, because that is Peter's very reason for going to speak with him/them, that he might speak the words by which they would be saved, that is, the Gospel of Christ.

    We go on...


    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



    John's baptism was a physical baptism, Christ's is spiritual, eternal. It is the immersion of men into God in Reconciliation through belief in the Gospel.

    So the bottom line is that we see Cornelius move from the Old Testament relationship with God (primarily physical) to the New Covenant eternal indwelling of God. He is born again through the process of indwelling and made a new creature. It is the moment he receives the Life Christ came to give.


    God bless.
     
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  6. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    The great error is the appeal or altar call system. Where the grace of God is attempted to be overturned by the pressure of man.

    Anyway I am not a Calvinist. I just believe what the Word of God says.
     
  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    One of the most oft-repeated and most ridiculous statements on BB.
     
  8. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    I don't follow a man,
     
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    The word of God is all we need.
     
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  10. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    I follow a man too. His name is Jesus, and Jesus, whom I follow, appointed teachers to the Church. You can say that He was a fool for doing so, but I tend to take Him at His word.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Neither do Calvinists, as we follow our risen Lord, and His name is Jesus, not Calvin!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Ironic that those who value free will at all costs seem to get upset when we insist that God honors the sinners free will by giving them a real offer to be saved, and them rejecting Him left to their own every time!
     
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    It is. It certainly is.
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Ironic that when we call people who don't believe in free will "IDIOTS" then they get upset at us, as if we had a say to behave differently.

    "Its the car's fault there is no gas in it" -Calvinist logic 101
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I never called those holding to that Idiots, just very confused on spiritual matters!
     
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Oh and is that repairable by YOU, THEM or GOD?
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Friendly Fire.

    I think he was saying he is not Calvinist in the spirit that GENUINE Christianity is Calvinism.

    Rather then sticking it out as a ALTERNATIVE to Christianity.
     
  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    They fall along a spectrum. Some are just ignorant, and some are complete idiots.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God is always willing to repair faulty theology!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Where would you see someone like a Tozer?
     
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