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When did regeneration occur?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AdamL, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. AdamL

    AdamL New Member

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    I have a question for our Calvinist brothers and sisters about regeneration. If my understanding of the Doctrines of Grace is incorrect then please feel free to correct me.

    Because of the total inability of man to come to God in any way man must first be regenerated and then can be granted the gifts of faith and repentance. In lieu of this, would that mean that the Ethiopian Eunuch and the Roman Cornelius were regenerated before they ever met Philip or Peter and heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ? The Ethiopian had and read the Scriptures and sought to worship God traveling to Jerusalem to do so and Cornelius was a devout man that feared God, he gave alms and prayed, and even had a vision from God. Both if these accounts can be found in Acts 8 and 10 respectively.

    I would say that both of these men were sincere in what they were doing not putting on a show for men as the Pharisees did. So my question is were they regenerated before they met Philip and Peter which gave them the ability to want to do these things such as read the Scriptures and pray and then they were granted faith and repentance upon hearing the Gospel? If that is the case when were they regenerated? If that is not the case when were they regenerated and how did they seek God in an unregenerate state?
     
  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    The order of salvation, according to some Reformed folks is: Ordo-Salutis.jpg
     
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  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Notice that you were not corrected. Very telling.

    As a non-Cal I've asked this question several times over the years. I've included not only the Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius, but also the Magi, Lydia, the Roman Centurion (Matt. 8), the woman with the issue of blood that touched the hem of Jesus' garment, Zaccheus and even the demon possessed man (Mark 5).

    The Calvinist answer is "they must have been regenerated and there is no way you can prove that they weren't."




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  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Adam, welcome to the BB.

    Regeneration can occur at any moment the Holy Spirit chooses. Regeneration is never apart from the means of salvation, which is the gospel message. God calls His elect in time through the preaching of the gospel. The Holy Spirit illumines and regenerates the sinner. The sinner then believes through faith. Justification and sanctification follow. All of this happens nearly instantaneously. There was no need for the Ethiopian Eunuch or Cornelius to be regenerated far in advance of their hearing the gospel.

    For a more thorough explanation, take a look at this resource: The Ordo Salutis
     
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  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean by "before"? A week before? A month? See my previous post. Yes. The sinner must be regenerated before justification, but the work of the Holy Spirit is (for all practical purposes) instantaneous.
     
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  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I don't know. JohnDeereFan, Calvinist member here on BB, walked the aisle many times, prayed the prayers, etc. yet said he wasn't born again that whole time. Now, with these actions he was seeking God, right? He was attending church, reading the Bible, listening to sermons, responding to invitations, and asking Jesus to come into his heart.

    I would characterize that as seeking God.

    So when was he regenerated?





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  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I never used the word "before". But let's stipulate that was my meaning.

    The Magi sought Jesus and traveled far to see him. If they were regenerated they must have been regenerated before they started their search, right?





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  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Wrong. He was seeking a feeling. He was seeking after his own desires.

    None of which equates to seeking God. It is all self-seeking.

    Then you would be wrong.

    The hour he first believed.
     
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  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Already dealt with in this thread The Wise Men which you turned tail and ran from.
     
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  10. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    The reason we run into difficulty understanding the behavior of people apparently "seeking" God is found in the definition of the term, "God". They are not seeking the God of the Bible - the True and Living God. They are seeking idols. They are seeking a god of their own imagination/likeness/making.

    In general, were the Pharisees seeking the living God? Jesus said they don't know Him because they don't know the Father.
     
  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Wow, Calvinists manufacture definitions to shoehorn their theology, making it force fit into situations.

    If attending church, reading the Bible, praying, and responding to invitations to believe in Jesus is NOT seeking God, but rather is idolatry, you guys have got big problems with credibility.

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  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    YES!

    Did You Love the Light or the Darkness?
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    "I turned tail and ran?"

    Hilarious.

    Your assertion that the Magi had already heard the Gospel and were regenerated and then your challenge that I prove they weren't regenerated pretty much killed any further discussion. No one can prove a negative. The burden of proof was on you and you failed.

    Just another example of forcing the facts to conform to your theology.

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  14. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Looking at the chart, and checking back on Romans 10:14-15, coult the Ethiopian eunuch have gleaned the Gospel call from reading Isaiah?

    Or maybe I should ask, is that same order applicable to the Old Testament saints?

    Edited to add: I know I quoted Brian for the chart, but anyone feel free to respond.
     
    #14 Rob_BW, Jan 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I've always wondered....what came first, the left side or the right side? Since the left its left of right it must be the right side.....:Biggrin
     
  16. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yes. I would say so. The Spirit works through the Word, and we flawed humans get to help, as well.

    Also, God's providence is demonstrated in the story of the Ethiopian. He calls His elect by causing them to be born, live, travel, etc., in certain places where He brings them the gospel. He has it covered from start to finish.
     
    #16 thatbrian, Jan 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  17. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Are there any people sitting in pews in Evangelical churches every Sunday morning who aren't Christians?
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Just another example of your not understanding the bible.
     
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Sure it is. Insults fly when you reach a dead end in your arguments. We understand.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
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  20. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Sure.

    And what about your new strawman argument?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
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