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When did regeneration occur?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AdamL, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    The problem with regeneration (and the Calvinist principle of Total Depravity) is that salvation is INDIRECT and both Calvin and Arminius assumption that salvation was DIRECT is demonstrably false. In fact, both Calvin and Arminius were under the faulty assumption that faith causes salvation. This is not the case. Faith causes human adoption. We become the adopted, spiritual descendants of Abraham. Then, in the next, indirect step, descendants of Abraham inherit Christ's righteousness as a birthright. Abraham was the only man in history who's salvation was direct and not inherited. Jesus exchanged his state of righteousness with Abraham's state of sinfulness in a 1:1 redemptive exchange. Then God promised Abraham that all of his adopted descendants from many nations would inherit that righteousness as an everlasting covenant. This is how the righteousness of The One can apply to The Many.

    Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.​

    The scripture clearly delineates when and how a person is regenerated in Ephesians 1:

    Eph 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

    So we see that we are sealed (circumcised of the heart by God) with the Holy Spirit after we have believed and been qualified as heirs of the inheritance. Yet this is not full regeneration but is merely a pledge of the full inheritance of righteousness which comes at the resurrection.
     
  2. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    You are "regenerated" the moment you become a "new creature": "old things passed away, all things become new", "born of God", "born of the Spirit", "Indwelled with the Spirit", "sealed with the Spirit", "born again".
     
  3. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    According to scripture, this comes AFTER faith, not before.

    Eph 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Rom 2:29
    But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    Jer 4:4
    Circumcise yourselves to the LORD
    And remove the foreskins of your heart,
    Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
    Or else My wrath will go forth like fire
    And burn with none to quench it,
    Because of the evil of your deeds.”

    Col 2:11
    and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
    Furthermore, we aren't fully regenerated until the resurrection when we get our incorruptible bodies. The resurrection is the FULL inheritance of righteousness. The indwelling of the divine nature (the Holy Spirit) is the spiritual circumcision that is a pledge or seal of the full inheritance yet to come.

    Rom 4:9
    Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
    10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
    11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
    12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
    13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​
     
  4. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    I said "the moment".
    The "particular redemptionists"(aka "calvinists") are the ones who say it comes "before faith". They somehow equate "regeneration" with "enabling"(or other terms)
     
  5. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Ok, you're right, it does say ":after". I would say "immediately after", like, a split second. Anyway, certainly not "before" lol.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
     
  6. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I think of the parable of the sower. Some fell on ground, started to sprout, but were carried away or died. I would qualify it further to say it happens "immediately upon the faith being a genuine or enduring faith." God knows the heart and if the faith is real and enduring.

    Heb 10:36
    For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.​
     
  7. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Yes, that's what we're talking about; the 'real deal'.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You had no control over your natural birth (you didn't birth yourself)... In the same way you have no control or your spiritual birth either... Though some believe they do... In Jesus illustration to Nicodemus he uses the wind as a comparison going where it wants. not where you direct it... One thief on the cross was regenerated before he opened his mouth... Both reviled Jesus but one thief was changed... What changed him?... Why wasn't the other one changed?... You brethren apparently have as I heard one preacher say the cart pulling the horse... Being born again is an act of God alone, but sinful man still wants to take credit for something the Holy Spirit alone has done... Brother Glen:)
     
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Amen Brother Glen.

    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

    (...Mom, Dad, would you all please bring me into this world?...NOT the way it happens...)
     
  10. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    That, is not the issue with me and I'm not trying to 'take credit"(which is works). If I were, I would join the "Arminians", Pentecostals or SDA's.
    The issue I take with y'all is what your doctrine does to the character of God. Instead of the God who "so loved the world" He is presented as the God who so loved a few and chose to fry the rest in Hell for some kind of "glory". At least that is what it amounts to and what some even ADMIT to.But I won't leave this on that note.... The God of Heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ, will be revealed to be far more glorious because His boundless mercy, longsuffering, perfect righteousness and unfathomable love was for ALL persons and His sacrifice on the Cross was for every single one and those who end up in Hell went there because it was THEY ALONE who CHOSE to reject Jesus, and rendered themselves "without excuse".
     
  11. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Absolutely!
    It's God's will that ALL come to repentance. And when you get "born again" it was because of His will. Completely.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Its not His determined will though, is it?
     
  13. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    As in "determinism"? Absolutely not.
     
  14. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
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    Meyer's NT Commentary

    The relationship between being born of God and faith is not to be expressed thus, that first the latter and then the former follows; but neither is it first the former and then the latter, but being born of God happens in this way, that God works faith in man; “the new birth is,” as it runs in the Mecklenburg Catechism, “the working and gift of faith.” The πιστεύειν, which begins with the gift of πίστις, is therefore the result, and hence also the token, of being born of God, as the ποιεῖν τὴν δικαιοσύνην (1 John 2:29) and the ἀγαπᾷν (1 John 3:7).
     
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yes. "The real deal", which means the emphasis of your "gospel" is the strength of a man's faith, while a Calvinist understands that it's not man's faith but the object of his faith, which is why there is a P in TULIP.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All who are saved is due to His determined will, correct?
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God told me he prays TO you Yeshua same way I pray to him.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I would really doubt that you were hearing from the true God in that case!
     
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