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Featured When does this judgment begin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alofa Atu, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Pro_28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

    When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second Advent?


    Psa_9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

    Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    1Pe_4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second advent?

    Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    When does this judgment take place? At the beginning or ending of the 1,000 years?

    Psa_149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

    Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
     
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Jesus always used the expression "ON THE LAST DAY"

    I wouldn't obsess over judgement day.

    We are in "judgement" all the time. God can see us right now.


    Jesus Christ said it best:

    Matthew 6

    34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
     
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  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Roman Catholicism has no answers to the OP, only evasions.

    The phrase the "last day" is 1000 years long according to the very person your Jesuit is supposed to be spiritually descended from.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Quote the teaching buddy. Last day is the last day. Jesus quite clear. He will Judge on the last day.
     
  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
    2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
    2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    Isa_24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

    Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    See also John 6:39, 40,44,54,11:24, 12:48.
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Soon, the judgment that is ongoing at present (Rev. 14:6-7), passes from the dead (Heb 9:27) to the living (Rev. 3:10, 17:12). He, by His Holy Spirit, comes looking (searching, investigating) for fruit amongst the trees, and will God find fruit among the professing, or will He only find leaves.
     
  7. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Mar 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
    Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
    Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

    What was Jesus doing to the fig tree?

    [goes into Jerusalem, leaves and comes back in the morning]

    Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
    Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
    Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
    Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
    Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
    Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Man!, we are getting some cooky junk coming on the board lately.
     
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  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Are you saying Jesus wasn't investigating the fig tree for fruits, being hungry for righteousness, and thirsty for faithfulness? If so, what was Jesus doing?
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Hello Alofa, it is a bit late so I am going to answer your question on the first set of Scriptures posted only.

    This speaks of Temporal Judgment, rather than Eschatological. The first 11 verses make this plain.


    [/QUOTE]
    Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    [/QUOTE]

    It is my view that this speaks of the Great White Throne Judgment, which will take place after the Millennial Kingdom.


    [/QUOTE]
    1Pe_4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
    [/QUOTE]

    I believe this also speaks of the Great White THrone Judgment, though has application to the Jusgment that takes place at Christ's Return (just prior to the MIllennial Kingdom).


    [/QUOTE]
    Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    [/QUOTE]

    Both Temporal as well as Eternal Judgment can be viewed as relevant to this statement (and quoatation).


    [/QUOTE]
    Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    [/QUOTE]

    This speaks of Christ's judgment when He Returns at the end of the Tribulation.

    God bless.
     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    You must not have read the previous verse in context with vs7:

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    The judgment spoken of takes place before any return of Jesus.
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Yes, you "believe" and provided no scriptural evidence, even when the context was against such belief.
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Yet, in context, and in the structure of Daniel it is impossible to be so.

    Notice, that when the Ancient of Days [the person of the Father] sat, multiple thrones were also placed, wherein the angels [which 10,000 etc surrounded Him] also sat, and books were opened. This judgment is for the angels to look into, because they cannot read the human heart as God can, and thus they need to see for themselves that God's judgments were right on who is to be let into a place without sin [Heaven]. The timing of the sequence in Daniel 7 [as shown in context and in chiastic structure, etc] reveals that this phase of judgment takes place after the rise of Rome and its divisions, and before the second advent, and the kingdom come. It is unbreakable in its order. The judgment therein is even taking place while the little horn is still blaspheming on earth, before it is destroyed, before the number of the kingdom of Heaven is made up.

    In Daniel 7 is in 4 main parts.

    Daniel 7:1-14 KJB the vision of Daniel
    Daniel 7:15-18 KJB the super summary of the whole vision by Gabriel [even vss 17,18]
    Daniel 7:19-22 KJB Daniel asking about it again, and a specific
    Daniel 7:23-28 KJB Gabriel, once more going over the whole in more detail

    Thus Daniel, Gabriel, Daniel, Gabriel. Each portion intimately tied to the other, so that the timing thereof cannot be broken between each section.

    We can know that a particular Judgment, which takes place in Heaven, begins after a certain time, and before the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

    [1] The Lion with Eagles wings comes first, [Daniel 7:4 KJB], The Kingdom of Babylon, which was from 605 BC – 539/8 BC

    [2] The Bear raised up on one side with three ribs, [Daniel 7:5 KJB], The Kingdom of Medo-Persia, which was from 539/8 BC – 331 BC.

    [3] The Leopard with 4 Heads and 4 Wings, [Daniel 7:6 KJB], The Kingdom of Greece and its division, which was from 331 BC – 168 BC.

    [4] The Dreadful Terrible Beast with Iron Teeth, Brass Claws, [Daniel 7:7 KJB], The Kingdom of Pagan Rome, before its division, which was from 168 BC – AD 476

    [5] The Dreadful Terrible Beast with Iron Teeth, Brass Claws, then goes into division, with the Ten Horns, [Daniel 7:7 KJB], during the division of the Pagan Roman Empire, which was from AD 476 – AD 508/538.

    [6] The Dreadful Terrible Beast with Iron Teeth, Brass Claws, in its division, then another different power arises from the division, an eleventh horn, the Papal Rome, uproots three of the ten, and becomes the 8th. This power was seen in the days of the Apostles, but was withheld by the Caesars in power, until finally it gained the power of the state, taking the place of the Caesars in Rome, 508/538 AD and rules for 1,260 & 1,290 years [Daniel 7:21,25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,13, 13:5; Luke 21:22-24 KJB] until AD 1798, where it received a deadly wound from the atheistic France [Revelation 11:7-13 KJB], under Napoleon and his general Alexander Berthier. Thus the 1,260 [from AD 538] and 1,290 [from AD 508] ended in AD 1798 [Daniel 11:40[a] KJB], and the 1,335 [from AD 508], ended in AD 1843/44. The 2,300 [Daniel 8:14 KJB, from 457 BC] was coming to its end... AD 1844 approached [Daniel 7:26 KJB].

    [7] “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit … the judgment was set, and the books were opened.” [Daniel 7:9-10 KJB], the Judgment was set in Heaven in AD 1844, as was foretold/typified by the Feasts of Leviticus 23 and 16, the Day of Atonement. These books are searched by the angelic hosts, and whosoever name was not "found" [Daniel 12:1 KJB] therein, would not be delievered.

    Daniel 7:22 KJB - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Until [refers to the previous time portion in earlier verse, the leading up to 1844, thus the 1,260 years, 538-1798]

    Ancient of Days came, and did sit [refers to 1844 until the close of probation]

    judgment was given to the saints of the most High [refers to 1,000 years, see Rev 20:4, "given unto", see also Paul, know ye not that the saints will judge angels [fallen], the world [lost].]

    and the time came [end of the 1,000 years, see Rev. 20, Isaiah 24, etc] that the saints posesses the kingdom [being New Heaven and New Earth]

    In Ezekiel 1-9, shows the same, wherein a investigative judgment goes forward, and then execution of that judgment takes place after, beginning with the elders of the temple/sanctuary on down to the least.

    [8] We can see that the Judgment is going on in Heaven, while the 4th Beast and its last [revived, Revelation 13 & 17 KJB] form is still on earth, and still blaspheming God, [Daniel 7:11 KJB].

    In Daniel 12, which is the ending of Daniel 11, which itself is the repetition and enlargement of Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 and 2, we may witness that those which are found which are to be delivered in the end, must be found in the Book of Life, and in order to be found therein, that Book must be opened and read in the investigation time, which takes place before Jesus comes to give his reward, for before then a decree goes forward from Jesus [Revelation 22:11].

    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    What are you talking about?

    Psa 9:3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

    Psa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

    Psa 9:6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

    Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

    Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

    Psa 9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Who is speaking? The Psalmist. And he is speaking of living, breathing enemies who will suffer the judgment of God. Their name being "put out forever" speaks of their deaths. It is common in the Old Testament for physical death to be described in terms of their not being seen or heard any more.

    Again, the first 11 verses make this clear.

    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It is actually an announcement of HIs Return, and when we consider that when He returns He will render judgment it seems pretty clear. There is an initial judgment as well as the Sheep and Goat Judgment, not to be confused with the Great White THrone Judgment which takes place 1,000 years and 75 days after Christ's Return.

    Have to get going, have a blessed day.

    God bless.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would agree, in taking a closer look at the context it appears that this judgment takes place at the end of the Tribulation.

    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Would you mind showing where the context is against such a belief?

    God bless.
     
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    So as to not repeat what was already clearly stated:

    When does this judgment begin?
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Revelation 14:6-7 doesn't say anything about Christ's return. It speaks about the "everlasting gospel" going into all the world, while the "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments, "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" (vs 7; Exodus 20:11), "keep the commandments of God" (vs 12), takes place during that time, since it states, "the hour of his judgment is come" (during the preachment), not will come after the everlasting gospel closes.

    What verses are you reading?

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Notice, that the "everlasting gospel" is still going forward, while "judgment" takes place concerning God's Law (Commandments), and then comes "wrath" (afterward) for those who reject God's offer in Christ Jesus, who refuse to come into obedience to the foundation of His government.

    It even mentions the "beast" and "his image", all of which takes place before Jesus' return.

    What book, chapter and verse are you reading?
     
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