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Featured When does this judgment begin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alofa Atu, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not sure how a quotation of a verse denies my view. Will not Christ judge the living and the dead when He returns? WIll He not judge the dead at the Great White Throne?

    God bless.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would agree for the most part but the fact is that the Tribulation is the Judgment of God on this world, and it culminates in the Return of Christ.


    First, where exactly do you get that "the "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments" is a distinct judgment for that time? Show me exactly where "the Ten Commandments" are found in Revelation. Who exactly is this judgment exacted on? Jews? Gentiles? Both? In view is physical judgment on the earth, that again...culminates with the Reurn of Christ and the Sheep and Goat judgment.

    Secondly, why would you displace Christ's Return from the events of the Tribulation?

    Third, we see reference to the Great White Throne...


    Revelation 14

    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


    ...and the events of the Tribulation spoken of. They will take the mark during the Tribulation but the judgment does not fall until after the Millennial Kingdom. This is eternal judgment, whereas the judgment of the Tribulation is primarily temporal, though for the lost having eternal consequences.


    Kind of a moot point to speak of the "everlasting" Gospel still going forward, isn't it? The Gospel will be preached throughout the Tribulation and in the Millennial Kingdom as well.

    Secondly, all judgment centers on the revealed will of God, and it is to that which is refferred to, not the "Ten Commandments." One particular commandment that will be a focus in regards to the judgment within the Tribulation is the commandment to obey the Gospel. Those mentioned in v.12 are not Saints because they keep the commandments of God, they keep the commandments of God because they are Saints.

    Third...the entire Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on those who refused to obey the Gospel, not that they didn't "refuse to come into obedience to the foundation of His government." His "government" will not be set up in the Tribulation.

    Fourth, you entirely overlook the fact that vv.10-12 refer to the Great White Throne Judgment.


    So when does this...

    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    ...apply?

    To the Tribulation, or to the Sheep and Goat Judgment, or to the Great White Throne?

    Revelation 14.

    The Return of Christ is the crowning feature of the Tribulation. All judgment leads to this. It seems you are trying to create a "judgment" involving God's law and Ten Commandments" which is not in the text, thus you must make Christ's Return somehow exclusive from the Tribulation.

    I have one question: is the Tribulation still going on when Christ Returns?


    Revelation 19:11-21
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    So it's a little hard to displace this event from the judgment spoken of in ch.14.


    God bless.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Not sure how this response was not clearly demonstrating the point that your view is in error:

    So as to not repeat what was already clearly stated:

    When does this judgment begin?
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Not what I said (anywhere), and not what Revelation 14:6-7 said. The judgment spoken of in vs 7 is for the professing, not the not-professing.
     
  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Revelation 14:6-7 isn't about the Second Coming (event), but about the Everlasting Gospel and the judgment that takes place during that alotted time, not after the mystery of God (Gospel) is finished (Revelation 10:7).
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    I did that already, but you refuse to see, as it is written of you.

    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Fourth Commandment (Exodus 20:11) is directly being cited, by Revelation 14:7, the very heart of God's Law, and a simple reference in your Bible will even show that to you (if not, check almost any commentary or even the TSK (Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, see "worship")):

    Exo. 20:11 "... the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is ..."

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Notice, the delineation between the person of God (the Father), saying, "the commandments of God", and the person of the Son, "the faith of Jesus".

    The Commandments of God, as referred to in vs 7, are the Ten Commandments (cited specifically 3 times in the OT).

    If afterward, you still cannot see, the fault lies with you, not Jesus Christ, who came to heal all of blindness.
     
  7. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Your numerical order is grossly misrepresenting and non-sequitur. Read the OP again.
     
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    That is not found in vs 6-7. You keep trying to bring in other texts, which come after the events of vs 6-7. Simply read the word "followed". It means to come afterwards, behind, etc.
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Actually no. There are no more wicked of mankind alive during the 1,000 years and the mystery of God (Gospel) is "finished" (Revelation 10:7). They are all dead upon the earth, and the saints will all have been taken back to heaven with Jesus:

    Addressed here in Video - Armageddon & 7 The Last Plagues & Millennium & New Heaven and New Earth

    Here in Powerpoint - Armageddon & 7 The Last Plagues & Millennium & New Heaven and New Earth
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Addressed above and especially here:

     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Revelation 14:6-7 doesn't speak of 'their [wicked] judgment', but 'his judgment'. These are two differing things. You are in error. Again, it is not speaking of something future, yet to come (as you continually imply eisegetically), but rather it is already come (even is taking place now), while the everlasting gospel is being preached in all the world.

    Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Notice, that the "this gospel of the kingdom", the same as the "everlasting gospel" is being preached in all the world, while in vs 7 the "hour of his judgment is come", not will come after the gospel does its work (Revelation 10:7). It is not future, but already present. The "hour" of "his judgment" is verily calculated from the prophecies in Daniel, connected with Revelation, see Daniel 7:9-10,13,22, 8:13-14,26, 9:24-27, 11:33,40-44, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:5,6,10,13-15, 10:6, 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5, 14:6-7, etc., connected with Leviticus 23 & 16, knowing even the 'hour', 'day', 'month', and 'year'.
     
    #31 Alofa Atu, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    You misunderstand the phases of judgment. It is not 'exacted'. See Daniel 12:1 for the conclusion of 'his judgment' as begun in Daniel 7:9-10,13,22. The angels of Heaven are even now looking at the books of records of all those who have professed in the Saviour from the time of Adam. Beginning with those who have died (first), and soon to pass to the living, who must be tried (Revelation 3:10, 8:1, 17:12) before they can be translated to Heaven (Revelation 7 & 14).
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    You have erred in understanding of God's perfect will:

    Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
    Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
    Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

    Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

    Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

    The Ten Commandments are that which shows God's faithfulness (being all promises of God and His character; Exodus 20:5-7; Exodus 33:12-23; Exodus 34:1-9), his salvation, Exodus 20:1-2,6, his lovingkindness.

    Seek to negate this, and you will never understand this prayer:

    Mat_6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Did I ever say otherwise? No. Yet, you will refuse what I say.
     
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Already shown you to be in error on this, here -

    When does this judgment begin?

    and here - When does this judgment begin?

    Address what is written, not what you think I wrote.
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Revelation 11:15-19 told you.

    Revelation 14:9 even told you. Notice the word "followed".

    Even Revelation 18 (see vs 4,8), the repetition of Revelation 14:9, tells you.

    The wrath of God is not poured out until "his judgment" (Revelation 14:6-7) is over. It, wrath of the Lamb, falls entirely upon the wicked, the unrepentant, while the saints are upon the earth facing the wrath of the dragon.

    Notice the words "shall" being future tense, whereas "his judgment" (vs 6-7) is taking place now while the "everlasting gospel" is still working, for the time comes when no man can work.
     
    #36 Alofa Atu, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Again, that is because you do not understand the phases of the judgment, see OP:

    You confuse the Great White Throne judgment with the other phases, their purposes and their timings.

    It would be the same as confusing the searching/investigation of the fig tree (AD 31), the moments with the sanhedrin (with Jesus (AD 31) and Stephen (AD 34)), and the surrounding in AD 67, and the final leveling of Jerusalem in AD 70.
     
    #37 Alofa Atu, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Again, this quotation does not deny my view:

    Again we see the interwoven aspects of multiple fulfillment in Prophecy.

    This has a primarily temporal context, yet ultimately the Hell that men will go into at judgment will be Hell itself, rather than sheol/hades. Unless you want to say that is irrelevant to the text. We cannot isolate this to the Tribulation only because destruction by the enemies of God will take place in the MIllennial Kingdom as well (v.6).

    So again...you will have to show why this quotation denies my view rather than simply stating it does.


    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, that is what I said, lol.

    As far as the "professing" being judged...


    Revelation 14:6-7 King James Version (KJV)

    6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


    ...did you not notice that in v.6 what is stated goes out to...them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,..

    ...?

    Not sure how many times I have to explain what I said before you understand. No, it isn't about His Return specifically but His Return is the crowning judgment on a seven year period of judgement.



    You quoted me as saying...

    Darrell C said:

    and it culminates in the Return of Christ.


    ...and I have given a more accurate statement to put your response in context.


    The entire Book is about the Return of Christ, lol. The judgment you are trying to teach is a construct of your imagination. There is no...

    "...'judgment' involving God's law and Ten Commandments"


    Continued...
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And where exactly is it written of me?

    You assume to pass judgment on someone's salvation because they disagree with you? Because they don't take...your word for it?


    To worship God is simply a basic Bible truth, and that you read into this that the Fourth Commandment is being quoted is ridiculous.

    And it is apparent you have no idea of the Unity of God, seeing you seek to separate the Father from the Son:



    You understand that the Son is the Creator, don't you? From your teaching it seems...you do not.


    John 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    Colossians 1:14-17 King James Version (KJV)

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


    Do you understand that born again believers are eternally indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?


    John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)


    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


    What are the commandments of Jesus Christ? What is His Word...

    ...that we have been commanded to keep?

    It's not the Ten Commandments. We are ministers of the New Covenant, not of the letter.

    You will never have a proper Eschatology until you first have a proper Soteriology.


    The implication being that men will have to obey the Law in order to be saved in the Tribulation. That is nonsense.

    Men will be judged for not obeying the Gospel:


    2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


    Particularly blindness in regards to the spiritual things of God.

    You are imposing into the text that which is not there. Men will be saved by keeping the commandments of Christ, and the Everlasting Gospel does not impose a keeping of a Covenant that has been abrogated.

    The only way men will enter into the Millennial Kingdom is, as Christ teaches in John 3...being born again. New Birth is the result of a man being Reconciled to God through Christ, which happens only when one comes into obedience to the Gospel.

    When Christ Returns He will separate the sheep from the goats, and among the goats will be many who did not keep "the Second Commandment..."


    Matthew 25:41-46 King James Version (KJV)

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    ...but that is not why they go into everlasting punishment. They go into everlasting punishment because they refuse to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And they did not keep the Word and commandments of Christ because they were not born again.


    God bless.
     
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