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Featured When does this judgment begin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alofa Atu, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    There is nothing in the OP but quotes and a question. I have answered the question. You ignore the point made.


    And that is why you have created a false teaching about a...

    "...'judgment' involving God's law and Ten Commandments"

    You ignore the fuller context of the passage...and the Book.


    What ineffable twaddle.

    Where do you think these people...


    Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


    ...come from?


    Why would I waste time with resources when the one giving them is so clueless to the events of the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom? Seriously.


    You have addressed nothing. ALl you have done is begin to present the error you hold to, and it will only be more revealed as the discussion goes.

    Exactly what "faith" are you of?


    God bless.
     
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  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Mm-hmm.


    Ridiculous.

    Does all of the Judgment happen all at once?


    That's not in Revelation 14:6-7.

    ;)

    So what is the "end?" Is there no further judgment after this?


    First, "The Gospel of the Kingdom" has a primary reference to the Millennial Kingdom. This is what Christ preached to Israel about during HIs earthly Ministry. But you would need to understand The Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, which Christ did not reveal during His earthly Kingdom.

    So you take two differing contexts and create false teaching.

    The "hour" has a reference to the entire Tribulation. We can't ewxclude that.

    And again, why would I waste a bunch of time looking at your prooftexts when you are ignorant of some very basic Bible Truths?


    You mean I misunderstand your teaching. You have yet to show I ahve misunderstood anything about Revelation, or judgment.


    Twaddle. Why is it that you do not give a proof-text for this? Is it because you have read it in the literature of a cult?

    Present the Scripture.


    Everyone that is born again goes directly to Heaven when they die:


    2 Corinthians 5:8 King James Version (KJV)

    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


    Everyone that dies outside of Christ remains in sheol/hades until the Great White Throne Judgment:


    Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    Revelation 20:12-14 King James Version (KJV)

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


    No prayer offered in a works-based mindset will be heard by God.

    You apparently don't understand that David lived under a different economy than we do, and one differing from the economy of the Tribulation.

    He was under Law...we are not, because we have been redeemed from the Law:


    Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

    4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


    David did not have the eternal indwelling of God. So to offer up prayer according to an Old Testament economy is absurd. We do not, for example, echo David's plea "...take not thy Spirit from me."


    And when will the Lord's will be done as it is in Heaven?


    Absolutely. It is shaping up to be works-based twaddle.


    You have shown nothing except you impose into God's Word that which is not there, and overlook what is.

    You have created a fictitious judgment, that is what is being shown.


    God bless.
     
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  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    It does, and I will leave it stand for any to read. Thank you for your time. Simply denying what it says to uphold your apriori is unfruitful, and wasted time.
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    I do not care for misrepresentation of what I have said. It is unbecoming. Again, the agenda you have is contrary to scripture provided from the beginning, which has not been addressed yet, even with all of the other things being stated off topic, and non-sequitur in your replies.
     
  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    God told you already and has shown such to you:

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    but you refuse to see, and hear.
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Not so,

    Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Ecc_3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    David was born again:

    Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    David is being judged in the judgment of Revelation 14:6-7., since he is one who has died (in Christ). See also Hebrews 11:32,39-40.

    All who are 'born again' do not make it. Scripture doesn't teach the deadly heresy of OSAS. Born again is not the end, but simply the beginning, Read Matthew 18, for forgiveness can be revoked by God, sins unremitted, as in the day of atonement (Leviticus 23 & 16).

    King Saul was born again, but he is forever lost.

    Ananias and Sapphira were born again, but they too are forever lost (Hebrews 6; Matthew 12:31, etc).

    Simply rejecting the reality of these statements, and substituting one of your own making, will not reconcile you to the truth.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We shall see if this discussion is without fruit when it is finished. You are teaching works-based salvation and imposing into a text something that is not there to do this.

    Tht is your agenda.

    And it is doubtful that you will have much luck among Baptists. Many of them actually read the Bible.


    Point out where I misrepresented you. Be glad to go back and show why I did not. How about quoting my responses and actually address...all of them. Instead of cherry-picking through them and imposing into them something that isn't there.

    In other words, try to break the pattern you have with Scripture.

    ;)


    What is there to address? A bunch of quoted verses and a question...which has been answered. And it is not off topic to address the reason for the OP, that you might teach men to reject the Gospel of Christ by seeking to enslave them to works-based salvation.

    We are only beginning, and I can tell you that you will be exposed as having a false Eschatology because your Soteriology is not Biblical.


    The Testimony of Jesus Christ...is the heart of the commandments of God.

    In view are those of Israel who have been born again. They have obeyed the Gospel thus are protected by God for the latter 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. Yet you would have them keeping the "Ten Commandments."

    Do you keep the Sabbath? Are you without sin? Do you keep the Ten Commandments without fail? We both know you don't. Yet you would seek to bring other men under the bondage you are under?


    Yes, I refuse to see and hear the teachings of those who do not know the Scriptures, thus teach false doctrine.

    Explain this verse:


    Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


    I already know you cannot, but I am curious if you will even try, or if you will dodge this as you have dodged other points brought up, such as the Trinity, for example.


    Continued...
     
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  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You think this denies Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5?

    Perhaps if you did not yank verses out of their context as proof-texts you might understand what is being said here:


    Hebrews 9:24-28 King James Version (KJV)

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


    Note that Christ enters into the Holy Place which is not a figure, but the "true" Holy Place...Heaven. Note that this is contrasted with the High Priest of Levitical Service who enters into the Holy Place made with hands, which is the figure of the true Holy Place. Note that the earthly High Priest had to offer up the blood of "others" over and over. The Writer, over and over, contrasts the Sacrifices of the Law with the Sacrifice of Christ. They could not take away sins...hence they were repeated. You can read Hebrews 10 to see that while those sacrifices could not take away sins, Christ's did, and this on an eternal basis.

    Do I think you will do that? No. You reject the Word of God because it conflicts with what you want to teach.

    Now, back to why men go to Heaven to be with God now when they die:


    Hebrews 9:6-12 King James Version (KJV)

    6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

    7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:


    Again we see reference to the earthly Holy Place, made with (human) hands. Every year he entered in...because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, thus bringing to completion the reason why the sacrifice is offered, which is...

    ...for the purpose of atonement and remission of sins.

    Now let's see something you aren't calculating into your doctrine:


    8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:


    Do you understand what he is saying? The way into Heaven, the Holiest, was not yet made manifest. Why? Because The Atonement for sins had not yet been accomplished, hence men remained waiting for Remission of Sins on an eternal basis.


    9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


    See the link. Know that the earthly Tabernacle, the holy place, and the Holy of Holies...were a Parable of the reality. Again...

    ...the way into Heaven was not yet made manifest.

    Note that they could not make him that did the service, the High Priest...perfect. Note in Hebrews 10:1 that the sacrifices of the Law could not make the comer thereunto perfect. Because they could not take away sins.

    Then turn your attention to Hebrews 10:14 and see that the Sacrifice of Christ not only makes one perfect...but does so on an eternal basis.

    So much for your rejection of Eternal Security.


    10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


    When was the Reformation? It wasn't 500 years ago, it was about 2,000 years ago. Levitical Service, we are told over and over in Hebrews...was carnal, temporal, earthly. It had a physical context.


    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


    It is when Christ, our Great High Priest of that which is the reality, rather than the Parable. What is the greater and more perfect Tabernacle?


    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


    You teach men they must redeem themselves, but Scripture teaches that it is Christ that takes away the penalty for sin (hence no further sacrifice) and it is He that has obtained Eternal Redemption for us.

    And you have men being born again in the Old Testament before this even happens.

    One more passage you need to consider:


    Hebrews 10:19-20
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


    What is the Holiest spoken of here? Can you acknowledge it? Can you even understand this?

    Entrance into Heaven was made manifest to men by the SAcrifice of Christ. Nothing else. The Old Testament Saints went to Hades when they died, not Heaven:


    Acts 2:27-29 King James Version (KJV)

    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


    David was dead. He had not yet received the eternal life God sent His Son to bestow through His death, burial, and Resurrection. David did not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, as did not the "fathers:"


    John 6:48-50 King James Version (KJV)

    48 I am that bread of life.

    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


    When did the Bread of Heaven come down?



    And this proves what exactly?


    Continued...
     
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  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You can't be both alive in Christ and...dead.

    When did Jew and Gentile start being one in Christ? When were men baptized into Christ.How can one be born again and not in Christ? Go back to John 14:15-23 and ask yourself if the disciples are in Christ or not. They are not.

    Jesus Christ had to die on the Cross and be raised from the dead in order for men to be born again:


    John 3 King James Version (KJV)


    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?



    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


    If you think men had eternal life prior to Christ dying and rising again...please explain the source.

    If you think eternal life was bestowed to men that Christ HImself said were dead and without life...please provide Scripture to support that, as well as address the explicit statements given you here.


    Continued...
     
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  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Of course David did not ascend into Heaven, he was gathered to his fathers in Hades like every other Old Testament Saint and sinner alike.

    The way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest and would not be until Christ died.


    John 3:13 King James Version (KJV)

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.



    The corruption was physical, as contrasted with incorruption:


    1 Corinthians 15:52-54 King James Version (KJV)

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


    But this has to do with the physical body, not the spirit. We who are born again have not yet put on incorruption, and will not until the Rapture, when all the Church will be glorified.


    Twaddle.

    David's sin were judged at the Cross of Christ:


    Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


    Romans 3:25 King James Version (KJV)

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


    He did not die in Christ. No man was in Christ until Christ returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter. This is just basic Bible truth, my friend.

    As for your proof texts, obviously you have not read the Book of Hebrews.


    Hebrews 11:32 King James Version (KJV)

    32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:


    Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


    These actually show the exact opposite of what you are trying to teach. New Birth is just one of the promises of God, and this promise is effected by the Eternal Indwelling of God which began on the Day of Pentecost:


    Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    This is the most explicit reference to the promise of Regeneration in all of the Hebrew Scriptures. Note that it is the Indwelling of God that causes men to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments. Not the effort of men. Obedience is a result, not a means.

    But going back to the Promises:


    Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


    Now, Christ defines receiving the Promise of the Father which He had taught them about (see John 14-16) as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, so let's look at Peter's definition of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost:


    Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


    A few points to acknowledge:

    1. Peter spoke the Word/s by which they were...saved;
    2. The Holy Ghost fell on them, or in other words...they received the Holy Ghost because they believed the Gospel (Acts 10:36-45);
    3. They received the Holy Ghost at the time of their salvation;
    4.The Holy Ghost falling on them is said by Peter to be the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (v.16);
    5. Salvation is said to be a gift (v.170;
    6 The disciples were saved when they too, at the beginning (Pentecost, when they were themselves baptized with the Holy Ghost) were baptized with the Holy Ghost;
    7. When one is Baptized with the Holy Ghost they receive repentance unto...

    ...life.

    See how basic that is? So if the disciples, who ministered under Christ for three years, did not receive the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, or were saved in New Covenant terms, orreceived repentance unto life...how then can you possibly make a case that David was born again? Particularly when even the proof texts you give show he wasn't because he was...dead?


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    This is a lie straight from the pit of Hell.

    Here is what Scripture actually teaches, and it is specific to those who are born again:


    1 Peter 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


    And let me explain what it means when he states "through faith:


    Romans 3:30 King James Version (KJV)

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


    When Paul is speaking of the circumcision, he is speaking of the past, and that their justification is/was by faith. When he is speaking of Gentiles, he is speaking of those who will be saved, as Peter does here, and speaking of their being justified by faith.

    In 1 Peter 1:5, in view are those who are not "kept" because they remain faithful, but is simply speaking of their salvation and subsequent security of their salvation based on faith in Jesus Christ.

    Now, let's revisit another passage to show that no man was placing faith in Jesus Christ while the Law was in effect:


    Galatians 3:23-25 King James Version (KJV)

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


    Before and after. All who were under the Law needed to be redeemed from the Law, and that did not happen until the Son of God took up residence in a body, died in the stead of the sinner, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter (which I explained to you in a previous post equates to the Eternal INdwelling of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).

    Here are two passages which show that eternal life is by receiving the Spirit of God (in His ministry as Comforter) and that it was not occurring even in the days of the disciples of CHrist:


    John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


    John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


    The departure here is spoken of in John 14:1-3, it means He must return to His Father's House, Heaven.

    This is just basic, and not understanding these basics are the reason why you do exactly what the Scripture tells us we are not to do...reject the Gospel and return to the Law:


    Hebrews 10:26-29 King James Version (KJV)

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


    While this is probably one of your favorite passages for the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers), the simple truth is easily seen by those who understand the basic truths I am attempting to teach you now.

    In view are not Christians who sin and thus lose their salvation and come under judgment, but unbelievers. THe comparison is made between those who rejected God's will under the Law, and those who reject God's will now (in this Age). The Covenant of Law is contrasted with the New Covenant.

    These have:

    1. Rejected Christ, the Son of God;
    2. Rejected His Sacrifice;
    3. Rejected the New Covenant;
    4. Rejected the Ministry of the Spirit of Grace, also known as the Spirit of Truth...the Comforter.

    And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you are fulfilling the wilfull sin of v.26.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    On the contrary, salvation in Christ is in fact salvation that is eternal.


    John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    You are rejecting the Gospel and seeking to save yourself through works. You will be held accountable, not only for your own rejection, but those you seek to turn away from the truth.


    I agree, being born again is the beginning of a new existence. That is why we are new creatures...not recreations.

    As far as "forgiveness revoked," and using Matthew 18 as a proof text for that, you simply do not understand that Christ is teaching primarily about the conditions of the Millennial Kingdom, not salvation.

    That you are as ignorant as you are concerning salvation is due to failure to understand basic truths of Scripture. You have no idea how to distinguish between the Age of Law and the Age of Grace. You do not understand the difference between people being under the Law and being in relationship with God through the New Covenant.

    Worst of all...you do not understand the difference between the sacrifices of the Law (The Day of Atonement) and the Sacrifice of Christ. Hence your proof texts are moot, and the more you seek to justify your false doctrine the more your ignorance will be exposed.


    Sorry, but Saul was not born again. No-one was in the Old Testament:


    Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


    Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


    Go and learn what that meaneth.


    I too believe they were born again, however, another basic truth you fail to understand is that the penalty seen in the Old Testament (formalized in the Law) still remains intact, becaues God's Word is consistent.

    The wages of sin are death, right? When someone was put to death in the Old Testament...what kind of death was it? It was physical. Anaias and Sapphira died physically, and your ignorance of Eternal Security twisats that to they are eternally lost. But the fact is that if a Christian sins without repentance...God will still impose the death penalty.


    1 Corinthians 11:28-30
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


    The damnation, the judgment...is physical.

    If you end up providing more proof texts for the false gospel of works-based salvation we can talk more about your failure to distinguish between the temporal and the spiritual, the physical and the eternal.

    I very much look forward to that.


    How is addressing each statement you make with a detaile dresponse providing a Scriptural basis "simply rejecting?" It is true I reject your "truth," because it is a lie. When you can start dealing with some of the basic truths brought to your attention then perhaps we can take a look at your Eschatology. But as I said, you will never have a sound Eschatology if you do not first have at least a basic understanding of Soteriology.

    And I will ask you again, and ask you to be honest...what "faith" do you belong to? Why have you not answered this simple question? If you are ashamed to admit what group you are part of perhaps...

    ...you should give some thought to leaving it.


    God bless.
     
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  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Pro_28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

    When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second Advent?


    Psa_9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

    Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    1Pe_4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second advent?

    Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    When does this judgment take place? At the beginning or ending of the 1,000 years?

    Psa_149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

    Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Contextually, they come from their graves, having been resurrected at the 3rd advent of Jesus Christ, which takes place at the ending of the 1,000 years (Rev. 20, Isa. 24, etc), after the 2nd Advent and great first resurrection of the righteous, and after the special resurrection before all that:

    E: [a special resurrection, some righteous, some wicked - to witness Christ coming in Power in Glory to fulfill His Word] Daniel 12:1-3,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13

    F: [[first great] resurrection [of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory], raised] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the "reapers"] with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

    G: [2nd Advent/Coming in Power and Glory, with all the holy angels, even unto the 3rd] Zechariah 14:1-7 [3rd]; Daniel 2:35,44,45, 7:14,22,27, 8:25, 12:1-3; Matthew 19:28, 24:30, 25:31; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27; 1 Corinthians 15:43; 2 Thessalonians 1:9

    H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

    I: [resurrection of unjust/damnation takes place on earth] Revelation 20:5,7-15

    You can see this in the parallel in Isaiah 24, and also in Psalms 37:

    Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

    Isaiah 24:1-20

    World destroyed

    Revelation 19:11-21; see also Revelation 16:18-21

    World destroyed

    Isaiah 24:21

    “the host of the high ones that are on high”

    Revelation 20:1,2

    “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan”

    Isaiah 24:21

    “the kings of the earth upon the earth”

    Revelation 19:18,19

    “the kings of the earth, and their armies”

    Isaiah 24:22

    “they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison”

    Revelation 20:1,2,3

    “the bottomless pit”, “laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him”, “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till”

    Isaiah 24:22

    “after many days shall they be visited.”

    Revelation 20:2,3

    “a thousand years”, “till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

    Isaiah 24:18

    “he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake”

    Revelation 20:9-10,11-15

    “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”, “... and there was found no place for them.”, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

    Isaiah 24:23

    “the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem”

    Revelation 21:2

    “the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven”

    Isaiah 24:23

    “Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed”

    Revelation 21:23

    “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.”

    Isaiah 4:3

    “And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:”

    Revelation 22:11,14

    “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

    Isaiah 24:23

    “before his ancients gloriously.”

    Revelation 22:3,5

    “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:”, “And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”

    There are no humans alive left on earth during the final 1,000 years, as the 7 last plagues will have wracked the earth, water to blood, etc, the greatest earthquake ever in history will have broken up the whole earth, all the cities will have fallen to nothing, the very sky itself will have been split asunder and exposed to 'space' (2nd heaven) at the return of Jesus in the second advent, along with the .glory of Jesus and the holy angels with him which the human wicked cannot survive.

    You can see those texts here:

    Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:4, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:1-17.
     
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    It will end forever at the coming of Christ Jesus.

    No. I repeat again with full faith in the text cited in what they explicitly say, Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-7; Isaiah 45:25 KJB, etc. I (as others of like mind/heart) continually (in almost every thread) state this, and evidence this, from scripture and even from the messenger of the LORD, but we are continually maligned in spite of this, with statements that are and have been demonstrably incorrect. and in error about what we teach, preach and live.

    Truth is always my "agenda"/

    I will wait for God's reward/ and approbation. I do not seek yours, or any man's, save that of Christ Jesus.

    The real issue is that of "sin", not that even devils read the Bible (I did not say Baptists are devils, I am simply drawing to the greater example, that reading the Bible is no guarantor of correct doctrine).

    Did that already. Go back and read. All posts are as they are and have not changed.

    I have been quoting your responses and addressing them, even all of the non-sequitur material that has nothing to do with the OP.

    Feel free to go through all of the posts, and re-present that which you think I have not addressed. Should I do your homework for you?

    I have no idea what you refer to here. It is vague.

    Pro_10:10 He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.

    See top of this reply.

    I am of the opposite mindset. I think we are at our ending.

    Feel free to continue to post as you will, it is your prerogative, and you will have to answer for every word, not to me (thank God), but to Him whom we all have to do.

    Scripture specifically defines "the testimony of Jesus" as:

    Revelation 19:10 KJB - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Several things here, all non-sequitur to the OP, yet non the less, there is no 3 1/2 years of "tribulation", and secondly all saints go through tribulation, but are protected from the "wrath" of God, which is differing than the 'tribulation' or time of trouble such as never was (Daniel 12:1, etc).

    Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20).

    Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

    His children, accordin to Isaiah 8, are His disciples which keep the commandments of God, which are the Ten Commandments, further, you can read this again, Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7; Jeremiah 31:33, etc.

    In my strength alone, No. In the strength of Jesus Christ provided at Calvary, Yes. Philippians 4:13. See Revelation 12:17, 14:6-7,12, 22:14; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6, etc.

    This is a two fold question. There is the matter of sin, and the record of sin. Sin is not yet blotted out, though at present all my past sins before Christ, and confessed sins after, are covered/forgiven.

    See previous response to the question about the sabbath. As a child, having been born again, I am to grow up into Him in all things, through first the sincere milk, then the full food (meat KJB).

    So, I no longer 'cuss' as I once have. I have ceased from that sin, by God's grace and Holy Spirit. Thus it is to be for every sin. So, as the blade, then the ear and then the full corn in the ear. Each perfect at the stage it is at. God is not the accuser. God is bringing forth the final and fulness of the crop before the end, to harvest for the Tabernacles.

    See previous response.

    The perfect Law (even as Jesus is perfect) is not the bondage, but the sin (transgression of the Law) is. That men fail of the perfect standard does not make the standard bondage. The failing is not in the Law, but in the weakness of the flesh, but God gives of His Holy Spirit to overcome all the world (and to overcome even as Jesus did; Revelation 3:21), the flesh and the devil, or satan, sin and selfishness.

    Saying it, is not demonstrating it.

    How far off the OP you are, and you asked me to answer you, but wherein have you addressed the OP? I have done a study on Hebrews, and you can read a large portion of it here -
    Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.

    It (Hebrews 10:14) is a contrast to Hebrews 10:1-2:

    Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    Do you accept this to begin with? Yes/no simply please. If not, then to continue would be a waste of time.

    I have warned you about your apriori, and that it is not a safe guide for anything. Do you think your knowledge (in this instance) infallible?

    Again, a non-sequitur ("trinity"). As stated before, it depends on how one is defining the word. I do not accept the Roman Catholic definition (which is what most evangelicals teach likewise, having long been corrupted through the Jesuit order).

    First things first. One of the issues I take with you, is how all over the place you are on so many topics, starting many and finishing none, "trinity", "Hebrews 10", "OSAS", "3 1/2 years of tribulation" (Jesuit futurism - Link), etc.
     
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