If a pastor is entitled to chose those who work with him, does that suggest that he would be also entitled to choose those who are the deacons and to choose all the members of the congregation he pastors? If a man chooses to accept the call of a congregation to be its pastor, is he not choosing to work in the ministry with all the present members of that congregation? Suggesting that a pastor should not be forced to work with the staff of a church that have been chosen by that church does not seem very different from saying a pastor should not be forced to work with the deacons that have been elected and chosen by that church. Are all the deacons supposed to resign when a new pastor comes to a church? Are church staff to work for the church or are they to work for the pastor?
You seem to have somewhat of a episcopal view of church government instead of a congregational view of church government.
When should a senior pastor be fired?
Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Jason Garrett, May 20, 2005.
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Membership is totally outside hte bounds of this discussion.
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If you do not have deacons, you do not have to worry about this issue.
I personally hold to a more staff led form of church government. -
In my opinion, according to your view that assistant pastors, youth pastor, etc. are only
extensions of the pastor they work for, then the logical and consistent time for them to resign and leave would be the same time that the pastor, whose extension they are, resigns or leaves.
If the office of "assistant" pastor is not permitted by the Scriptures and is not a scriptural office, then those who hold that office should not be expected to meet the scriptural qualifications for the office of pastor/elder/bishop, should not be ordained
to that scriptural office, etc. Is the title "senior pastor" ["chief pastor"] anymore scriptural than the title "assistant pastor?"
Instead of the old episcopal hierarchy of ranks in the pastoral office [priest, bishop, archbishop], it seems some Baptists have in effect created a similar hierarchy of rank in
a Baptist church [youth pastor, assistant pastor, senior assistant pastor, senior pastor].
In a 1876 book that was used as a text book or manual of Baptists principles at Spurgeon's Pastors' College, John Quincy Adams listed the following as one of those principles: "The fourth feature of the reform at which Baptists aim--the establishment of the equality of Christ's disciples" with the text Matthew 23:8--One is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren. (BAPTISTS THOROUGH REFORMERS, p. 111).
Adams wrote: "Priestly arrogance and ministerial assumption of authority are exhibited on almost every hand, in both the Protestant and Papal churches" (p. 112).
Adams wrote: "Chief ministers! chief ministers! who are they? 'One is your master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren'" (p. 121). -
My position is simple I have no problem with Godly leadership. One who is seeking the will of God. I submit to my pastor. Everything I do, I run thru him. I feel that is the biblical thing to do.
However what we are talking about is absurd. If my personality doesn't fit then I should go? That is not about leadership that is personal. I don't see anywhere in the Bible if someone's personality is what you like then fire him.
Leadership in church is more than being in charge. leadership is about empowering others. It is not making all the calls and micro managing. It is about letting others have freedom to do ministry. I lead by example. I would never have it any other way. I don't sit in an office and bark orders.
have ever had to dismiss a volunteer? Yes, but it was not because I came in and had a personality conflict. There had to be a real problem. Most people I have are very different to me. I can work with them because it is not about me.
I see no where in scripture where Jesus had a ceo makeup. We take things from the world and mold the church to it. I guess that is easier than changing the world like they did in the book of Acts.
sorry about my choice of words Larry. Really didn't think about it. I am just an old southern boy who is passionate about tthe church refining itself back to the early church. They were not worried about who was in charge. They just loved Jesus. We need more vistiation and less long range planning meetings. -
A church may desire that the staff leave with the pastor. That is their call. They may desire that the staff stay with the new pastor, and depending ont he constitution that may be their call as well (is there an echo in here???). An incoming pastor would be wise to be veyr careful in asking for a resignation, and take into account the attitude of hte body.
"Senior pastor" is the title given to the man who is the primary pastor in the church. Assistant, youth, counseling, etc are titles given to men who serve under him to help him carry out his ministry. The senior pastor would certainly be wise to free them for ministry. But in the end, someone has to be in charge. They have to answer to someone for what time they show up at the office and what they do while they are there, and when they go home. Who do you think that is? The Sr. Pastor.
By this time, you either get it or you don't. I won't continue to rehash my points again and again. -
Larry, I am a member now of a church which averages around 2,500 on Sunday morning. Each major ministry (children, youth, college/career, singles, young adults, adults, seniors) are all made up of large groups, or smaller "churches" within the overall church. We're talking over 300 children alone, over 270 youth, etc. etc. If you asked each of these groups who their pastor is, they will undoubtedly say it's pastor so-and-so, the youth pastor, or pastor so-and-so, the senior adults pastor. They all know who the senior pastor of the church is, the one who brings the sermon more times than not, but their pastor is the one who ministers to them directly and heads up their particular group.
Now, when we have a staff vacancy in one of our ministries, the senior pastor always heads up a search committee, but the committee is otherwise comprised of a couple of elders and the rest active members of THAT particular group, even down to the children (we have had children on a search committee, but its obviously been as nothing more than a happy feel-good position. It sure does put a big smile on those kids faces to know the adults of the church actually care what they think, however simple their opinions might be. (Sure wish most Baptist churches felt that way =(
This manner of organization and staff selections has worked wonders, as we don't have internal conflict, we don't have ministries vying against each other, and most importantly, we have a senior pastor who allows these other pastors (and no, they're not simply "staff members") to progress and run THEIR ministries as God leads them. It is, in fact, THEIR ministry. They are PASTORS.
What I hear you saying is the SENIOR pastor is the only pastoral post authorized Biblically. I disagree. I would say the position of PASTOR (without the qualifier) is actually the position setup by scripture. That being said, it is possible and more than probably in big churches for their to be small churches within the whole, with each of these smaller churches able to function independetly of the whole, of course keeping with scriptural basis and fundamentals.
I kind of understand what you're saying, Larry, because I was part of a very small church for a few years, and I saw first hand how the pastor struggled due to the vying agendas. But looking back on it, I'd say it was largely the senior pastor at the church not allowing his junior pastors to minister outside of this primordial and absolute authority. Looking back, I can see a bit of insecurity in him, and I think all of us deal with that at some point(s) in our life.
Just my two cents. -
Patrick, I agree with Larry. We ALL have a philosophy of ministry. I thank God that He has placed a desire in your heart to be Biblical, regardless.
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If, for example, he decides to fire the assistant or youth pastor, who has a calling to preach, it may not be possible for that person to find another place of suitable service.
DHK -
Jason says,
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Larry says: "I agree with you. I challenge you to find any "asaistant" pastor, youth pastor, music pastor, visitation pastor, in the Bible. It isn't there. The NT reveals a church with a pastor. Period. The modern inventions of assistants are not "unbiblical" so much as they are "biblical." God ordained the church to have a human leader in the pastor who is to love and care for the flock and have oversight."
First of all, your last point is a good conversation starter. Maybe something for another discussion.
Secondly, concerning your post I quoted above, you'd have to define what a church is. I stick by my defenition which is simply a group of believers, either based on geography (which is most common in smaller churches) or census group (age, marital status, etc.) which is where individual ministries, or "churches" are found in large churches.
Now, where does the buck stop in the church when it comes to, say, discipline or job performance, etc.? Our church has an elder board of which the senior pastor is a member. (I believe he is also the chair). Anyway, if an issue arised with the senior pastor, the elder board would make a recommendation to the church body, which would in turn vote on any personnel matter involving him. The same process would hold true with any other postoral position.
As far as staff positions, such as secretary, custodian, landscaper, etc., I'm not sure how that works. Frankly, it's really none of my concern.
As far as your comment that "God ordained the church to have a human leader in the pastor who is to love and care for the flock and have oversight," I completely agree. However, I think we might differ in that I feel the youth pastor should serve that role to the youth, the senior adults pastor to the seniors, etc. etc. But, I also recognize in small churches this might need to be different. -
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Then who does the 'Sr. Pastor' "answer to?"
Definitely not the staff.
A wise pastor will surround himself with a godly group of people who will help him maintain accountability. -
So, the pastor has no accountabiltiy to staff? i think that is a little naive. We are all acountable to oneanothers as brothers in Christ.
I am a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. our roles are different but yours is no more important. We are both to equip and spread the word. I don't think God has a hirachy when it comes to minister.
A pastor has a key role in carrying out the ministry of the church. He is to be the shepard. In the day that wasn't a job many people wanted. Definatly not ceo like.
Larry to me you are coming across as trying to run the church like a business. I just do not feel that is the way to go personally. You sound like some corporate headhunter who is trying to build a company and not God's church.
Paul fired one man. Remember he did not want Mark to travel with him. Later on Mark had a pretty key role in the early church. I guess Paul might have wanted that one back.
I sense you are saying the pastor should have absolute athourity when it comes to personel moves. I do not think that is the way that should be set up.
In kindergargden you are to get along with others. I feel that has to happen in minstry as well. I can handle your views on doctrine and the like as a valid reason. The church is probbaly at fault there. They should have done a better job of checking them out.
Personality is a different matter. That goes back to baseless reasons. That is just a man and not a minister that would dismiiss some one over personality. -
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I don't know why you're asking me to lie, but your request is denied.
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What in the world would lead you to pose such a question?
(And by, I didn't ask you to lie. It was a statement, not a question :D .)
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