Has anyone read this book by Dr. Kirby Godsey,President of Mercer University? Where is he coming from?
He said," Accepting Jesus is not the basis of salvation. Jesus came to say we are saved. We are forgiven. God's forgiveness lies within us. ... No conditions, no prerequisites, no plan to follow, grace is not a conditional affirmation. ...God receives us and accepts us as we are, no conditions, no plan of salvation to figure out, no doctrines to adopt." from pages 145,148.
Again, he said,"The compelling confession of our faith is not that God will love us or forgive us if we will repent our sins. The truth of the Christian gospel is that God loves us and forgives us already, no conditions." Page 115
How many agree with this man? There are many more but I just took 2 of his views from his book.
I don't understand where this man is coming from!!!
Bob
When We Talk To God...Lets Be Honest
Discussion in 'Books & Publications Forum' started by Bob Alkire, Sep 13, 2002.
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I own the book, and read it a few years ago. Some of it I agread with and some of it I did not. Basically, its just Dr. Godsey's thoughts on God. I know him and his family (his son is a missionary with BMDMI), and heard him speak on the book tour. At the time, Dr. Godsey summarized his views as "worship God, follow Jesus, and study the bible".
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David, Thanks!!! As in most books I found somethings that I agreed with, but not a great deal with.
I'll have to give Dr. Godsey credit, he has doubts about traditional theology,and he published his denial of many doctrines of the faith and he didn't try and hide his view. Even if I disagree (which I do) with him, he is stand up about his views. -
Not having read the book and judging only by the quotations you have given, I would say the guy looks pretty dangerous!
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On the other hand if you read Pauls writings and take them seriously it is pretty dangerous.
Russell -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Don't meant to nitpick, but the title of the book is actually, "When We Talk About God... Let's Be Honest".
Godsey, if I understand him correctly, is emphasizing that God's grace alone saves. I think the key passage in that section to focus on is,
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I'll come from the opposite end of the spectrum. I HAVE read the book. It is heresy, plain and simple. It denies the uniqueness of Christ. This book IS dangerous.
Rev. G -
I've found it a very useful tool for helping people to understand contemporary discussions in the study of religion.
Dr. Godsey is a committed Christian with a deep, personal faith. He's also honest about the tough questions that I think more conservative Christian writers tend to gloss over.
Joshua
(Who has a signed copy. ) -
Rev. Joshua:
Do you believe that it is possible to attain salvation in some way other than grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?
Rev. G -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Baptist Believer:
Please permit me to quote Mr. Godsey himself:
"Christians seem to become remarkably troubled about whether Jesus is humankind's only savior. Is Jesus God's only word? The simple answer is, 'Of course not.".... For me as a Christian, Jesus is the defining revelation. This confession that lies at the center of my faith does not require an exclusivist position whereby I should feel compelled to deny every other person's claim to know God. I can only say that, for me, Jesus is the central event of history. I cannot speak for another."
p. 133, cf. p. 119
Let me add:
"Jesus did not come to tell us how to be saved. Jesus came to tell us that we are saved." p. 144
"Jesus came to say that we are saved. We are forgiven. God's forgiveness lies within us. We are loved. God's embracing love lies buried within us underneath a load of guilt and fear. No conditions, no prerequisites, no plans to follow -- grace is not a conditional affirmation." p. 145
"God's word of grace is that we are all free. The announcement comes. Jesus himself is the announcement. Everyone who has lived in this awful state of being trapped has been set free." p. 155
"Universalism has a very high view of God. God's grace and God's love are the ultimate realities revealed in Jesus." p. 202
As a Christian, I deny universalism. Christ alone is humanity's only hope. Justification comes through faith alone in Christ alone - it comes only to those who trust only Christ for salvation.
Godsey ceases at this point to be both a Baptist and a Christian.
Rev. G -
Bob -
You seem to insinuate that Godsey has a "weak Christology". I disagree. Here is a man who is attempting to speak about God honestly. Please try to keep what he says in context.
P.117 "Jesus is not a God to be worshipped or the founder of a world religion to be admired." Godsey is opposing opposite kinds of confusion about the relation of the Father and the Son. (Who did Jesus tell his disciples to pray to the Father in the name of?)
P.127 "Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus is not God" Godsey was arguing Jesus is unique as the Word from which Words such as the Bible derive.
Kirby is not denying the divinity of Christ. He repeatedly affirms it:
P. 52 "In Jesus, the Word of God takes on historic personality, God comes and lives among us"
P. 72 "We meet God in Jesus"
P. 118 "Jesus is not legend. Jesus is God with us"
P. 119 "For the Christian faith, Jesus has defining and ultimate signifigance. In Jesus we see what God is like"
P. 125 "Jesus is Lord...In Jesus we see the light"
P. 129 "In Jesus, God comes to us in flesh and blood...God embodied in Jesus"
P. 131 "The idea is not that God appears as a person. God became a person and lived with us"
P. 135 "For me, Jesus is the only name that stands at the center of my faith. My response is to confess my faith"
P. 137 "Jesus completes and enlightens the awareness of God that has come through all other religious perspectives"
Quite the contrary Rev G. Far from a "weak Christology". Its funny, when the GBC was trying to fire Dr. Godsey and attempted to use this book, their arguments if I recall were that Godsey said the Bible doesn't command us to proclaim the gospel or observe the Lords Supper and Baptism. They dropped the "Jesus is not God" and the universalism charges fairly quickly when confronted with the facts. Or maybe they read the book finally. :rolleyes: I seem to recall even Russell Dilday mouthing off and then having to admit he had not even read the book. I will go back and check. -
Mr. Honeycutt:
I quoted passages that dealt primarily with salvation, and Christ as the one and only Savior (exclusivist position). You refuted NONE of those. Of which "facts" do you speak in regard to his universalism?
The passages you point out really do not make a difference with what I quoted dealing with the uniqueness of Christ. For Mr. Godsey Jesus is quite "personal" in a very "relative" sort of way. He is not universally unique, just personally so.
I do not claim that the Christology is weak, I claim that it is heretical.
Rev. G
[ September 19, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ] -
Will there be any response? Just wondering.
Rev. G