Who are the elect?

I will agree with you that all men have choices to make, but according to 1 Cor 2:14, the natural man, void of the Spirit, will not choose to serve a spiritual God. If you don't mind, tell me what that scripture means to you?

 

Jesus's faith in himself is what justifies us, our faith in Jesus is not the cause of our eternal salvation. Gal 2:16.

 

What do you mean by Jesus faith in Himself? I need clarification as to what you are implying & can you quantify your statement by scripture?

Thanks

 

I gave the scripture of Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ. It is Jesus's faith that justifies us not our faith. Rom 3:22, the righteousness of God wich is by faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 3:22,

 

Forest...

Its self explanatory. There is nothing in it that disturbs my view at all. As a matter of fact, it supports my position.

It is saying that God can do what He pleases to do, whether we like it or not. He is sovereign God of the universe and He does anything He wants to do.

Its the ones who are disagreeing with me you need to heed that verse.

They have God in a box.

Their attitude seems to..."You cant do that, God! It disrupts our theology"! I know the scripture is right there in front of me saying that you give "light" to every person in the world...but I say NO! I wont have it!

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

If your position is that God wills that all mankind to be eternally saved and you say that he accomplishes all his will then you will be having all mankind being saved eternally, is that right?

 

Same answer that I gave to "alive in Christ" thumbs up.

 

AIC,

"I think" this scripture in Daniel is simply a reminder of one of the things that God hates most in our fallen natures, that being the kernel of the fall, PRIDE.

Nebuchadnezzar epitomizes humanity. He had all that world could offer, a powerful kingdom, admiration, fame, glory, and money. All he had added to his deception of whom he was and who God is. His greatness compared to his fellow man blinded him to reality. Nebuchadnezzar in reality was only a creation, blessed by the creator, who granted him his success.

Satan had the same problem Nebuchadnezzar had, pride. He too forgot that he was only a created being. Satan tried to assume the role of God, for this reason he was dismissed from his heavenly role and became an outcast. He was the victim of pride

 

God gives light to every person in the world through the Person of Jesus Christ & every person has ample opportunity to come to Jesus Christ in belief..... but there is more to that than simply waking up one day & choosing to give your life to Christ (I think you know that) Right. Are you neglecting mans sin nature, that at times is so depraved that it is difficult if not impossible to choose for God.

The doctrines of grace teach that, in salvation, God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. This is true at every step of the way. Long before we could choose for God, the Father chose us in Christ. When we were so sin directed & unable to remove our guilt, The Son died for our sins. And when we could not come to God in faith, The Spirit drew us by his guiding grace. Thus the doctrines of grace requires the sinner to accept God's sovereignty in salvation.

 

Reply to Misdirection

1. Romans 8:13 says if we live by the Spirit we will live. While true, this as nothing to do with the issue. Ball one.

2. God did choose His elect before the foundation of the world, leaving aside whether He chose them corporately or individually. Strike one

3. God did not adopt His elect on the cross. He predestined His elect to adoption before the foundation of the world, again leaving aside whether He chose them corporately or individually. strike Two

4. Even no matter how garbled you make the claim, no charge can be brought against the elect, therefore individual election must occur after we have lived without mercy. Strike three.

5. Ephesians 1:13 clearly states were are put into Christ after we have believed, therefore we were not individually chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

6. We are regenerated, i.e. made alive, after we are put in Christ, for we are made alive together with Christ, and not when we are separated from Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

7. Yes, faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit, but our faith provides our access to the grace we stand in before we are placed in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith, not we are saved by grace and given faith.

Forest, it appears you have been sold a bill of goods rather than trained to study the bible.

 

Reply to False Charge

1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly says natural men, unregenerate men, men of flesh, cannot understand the things of the Spirit. And why is that, because he is not indwelt and those things are spiritually appraised. Thus whatever can be understood without being indwelt is not addressed in this verse. It only address what cannot be appraised without the Spirit. This is my understanding.

2. Now does this verse say all spiritual things, or only things of the Spirit that need to be appraised with the aid of the Spirit? You say all, but that is where you seem not to understand the verse.

3. In this same passage, 1 Corinthians 3:1 Paul says he must speak to these born again, indwelt babes in Christ as men of flesh. Why because they cannot yet understand the spiritual meat, but only milk. Therefore men of flesh can understand milk.

Forest, it appears you have been sold a bill of good, you need to learn how to study God's word, the truth is not buried.

 

Forest...

It means just what it says. It doesnt need any "interpretation".

But God, the Holy Spirit is in the business of "troubling" people, and "disturbing people", and "convicting" people.

And bringing them to thier senses.

And regarding those who, through no fault of there own, live their entire life outside of the hearing of the gosple, guess what?

God loves them too, and through the ministry of that same Holy Spirit they will be given an opportunity to accept, or reject. Gods loving drawing and wooing.

Thats simply the kind of God we have. The kind of God the scriptures proclaim.

 

Forest;
Why do you assume you understood what I wrote? If you didn't understand what I meant all you had to do was ask what I meant, and I would have explained it to you.
I wrote;

I did not say every man would be saved I said;
"To be chosen means that Christ is the propitation for the whole world. Where is particular election in that? "
Daniel says nothing about election in verse 4:35. Nor does he express anything about Saving faith, hope, or grace. He is speaking about God's will and God is not willing that any perrish.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Since you mentioned all men being saved quite truthfully every man who follows after Christ will be saved. We all here on earth have been given a choice of whom to worship. There is no such thing as election to Salvation and my proof is you cannot show your particular election from scripture alone. With out taking verses out of text and hoping I won't notice that the passage is actually speaking about something else.

So your defense and distraction tatic is to accuse me of something I never said anything about. In the hope of course that you won't have to explain why particular election isn't in scripture. There simply is no Biblical support for election of Gentiles. The Jews are the only elect. We Gentile's have been grafted in and not elected. If Gentiles were elect they could not be until they are in Christ.

Generally I like to show where total depravity does not line up with scripture although election like total depravity is just more of the same false doctrine. As is the whole tulip.
MB

 

Excuse me MB, I got the impression from somewhere (probably past correspondence) that you are a SBC Pastor. Am I correct in that assumption? If so, do you have anyone in your church that believes in doctrines of grace? Lastly, how would you instruct those who believe in it?

 

Tell them to keep studying until they finally got it right? J/K Brother. No offense meant Brother.....just in jest only.

 

I am not a southern Baptist Preacher. Though I will tell you that our church allows calvinist to come and listen to the sermon. Though we do not allow Calvinism or Arminianism nor any other ism to be taught there except that which agrees with our faith.. I would have thought this would be obvious in every church except for the Catholic's.
MB

 

Brother Forest...

No. No at all. That is Universalism. We all know that Universalism is not true.

The scriptures proclaim that It is not Gods will that anyone be lost, but that all will come to repentance. (and be saved of course). That is not a statement of univeralism, but rather a statement of Gods "desire". God WANTS all to be saved, but He does not want robots...as Calvinism promotes.

He wants those who freely and joyfully WANT to be with Him. Its their choice, and God will never take away mans free will regarding this matter.

 

Van seems to love baseball. I guess we have something in common. Can't wait to watch some baseball games...


ok, back to the discussion.. :D

Where me and other Calvinists are going to disagree is that we don't believe anyone will in their natural state ever want to come to him.

 

JBH...

Go Reds!