The evidence is not self-evident. The verse says they were bought by the Lord. Peter wrote both 1 Peter and 2 Peter; in 1 Peter 1:19, Peter clearly proclaims that it is the blood of Christ. In 1 Peter 4:1, he writes that Christ suffered for us in the flesh, again referring to paying the price with His blood. Would you have us believe that the same Peter who wrote those things, somehow then changes his mind in his second letter and doesn't mean Christ's blood when he mentions those that were bought?
Let me help you out, since you obviously don't understand: The price was paid with Christ's blood, but that doesn't mean they will see heaven. These ones Peter speaks of, he goes on to further explain later in the same chapter. He refers to them as those that have heard the Word, know of the Lord's sacrifice and shed blood to pay for our sins, but stay with or return to their ways; and therefore, like a dog returning to its vomit, have no place.
I rebuke and exhort you, sir. Because you are unable to support such simple doctrinal points, you have no business writing the things you do on this board. You have no business attempting to try to teach others, when you plainly cannot understand yourself. Re-read 1 Peter 3:15 and understand: If you're going to attempt to teach others, always be ready with an answer. Because you are not Christ, because you're a fallible human being just like the rest of us, you *MUST* answer the questions put to you, and stop resorting to the unlearned "review my points," especially when those points are being reviewed with you. Otherwise, you are in grave danger of leading others astray - and that, my friend, is *exactly* the kind of people Peter talks about in 2 Peter 2.
Who are those ALL God has Mercy On ?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Jul 9, 2015.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
That our Lord spent His entire earthly ministry in Israel is quite true, but even in the Matt. 15 text you offer. the Caananite woman recognizes Him as 'Son of David' and 'Lord' and is told ''Great is your faith.' Are you suggesting that she was not saved? 'For so God loved the world that He have His only begotten Son.....' Whatever you construe the 'world' to mean, it surely means more than 1st Century Israel. Our Lord declared, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself" (John 10:32, NKJV). Now the meaning of 'all' is the subject of the O.P., but here it surely can't mean all the people in the world without exception, since all people are not drawn to Christ. It means all manner of people, people of all nations. Therefore to limit Christ's sheep to Israelites seems to me to be quite mistaken.
[Note to Mods. We have strayed from Calvinism onto Dispensationalism. My apologies. Delete this if it is too far off topic] -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jesus said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
When Jesus sent out His disciples for the first time He sent them to Israel only, "but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Paul talked about the very same thing when he said "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16
Just because Jesus was talking specifically about the Jews at the time does not negate the gospel for the Gentiles. It is the context of the passage you mentioned that Jesus was only addressing the Jews. -
But first things first, lets consider John 6:39. You view is that Jesus is speaking of everyone, past, present, and future, as having been given to Christ in the past. But equally viable is the idea Jesus is saying whoever God gives to Christ, Christ will lose none. This would apply to anyone given to Christ, whether in the past, present or future. Notice John 17:21, where Jesus speaks of future believers, that they may be in Us. Thus future believers had not yet been given to Christ, for all given (John 6:37) arrive in Christ.
So Christ "bought" the whole world, those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction.
Next, lets consider the idea that the false teachers had claimed they had been bought but now deny they had been bought. First, not how it reads. They secretly introduced destructive heresies, thus were still claiming to be siblings, yet denying Christ who bought them. They were not denying the purchase, they were denying Christ. Thus the way of the truth will be maligned.
Lastly, "of My Sheep" refers to anyone who is open to the gospel, who is willing to believe God. They are the "fields white for harvest." They are not His sheep, but could be. They are the kind of person who might choose to believe wholeheartedly.
Bottom line, Christ bought those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. -
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
When we look at John 17:21, we see that it is a prayer for unity, not for salvation. "That they [believers. See v.20]all may be one, as you, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.'
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We could speculate on whether or not the false teachers had professed Christ, but we should stick to what scripture actually says. Scripture does not say they had claimed to have been bought but now are saying they were not bought. Rather, it says they were denying the Master who bought them. It is a description of Christ, and teaches Christ not only bought those saved or to be saved, but also those lost and heading for destruction.
In summary, scripture indicates future believers are not yet "in Christ" contrary to your view. Secondly, since we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we were not chosen individually unconditionally. -
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tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In the [N.T.] we read that God 'chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world........having predestined us to adoption as sons' (Eph. 1:4-5. cf. also Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2). We were chosen by God in eternity, given to the Son to redeem and sanctified by the Spirit. Wonderful!Click to expand...Click to expand...
This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.Click to expand...
Here I must say, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Jesus completed His mission successfully, Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. But that is not all. Every individual God gives to Christ, who is baptized into Christ, undergoes the washing of regeneration or rebirth, undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation, with their sin burden removed. From my side of the street, my view is consistent with all scripture, whereas your view does not mesh with many scriptures, including 2 Peter 2:1.Click to expand...
Again, not how it reads. The false teachers secretly introduced destructive heresies, but scripture does not say they entered secretly into the church.Click to expand...
We could speculate on whether or not the false teachers had professed Christ, but we should stick to what scripture actually says. Scripture does not say they had claimed to have been bought but now are saying they were not bought. Rather, it says they were denying the Master who bought them. It is a description of Christ, and teaches Christ not only bought those saved or to be saved, but also those lost and heading for destruction.Click to expand...
Well, one of us is quite mistaken. You are conflating "of My sheep" with "My sheep" as if they were the same group.Click to expand...
In summary, scripture indicates future believers are not yet "in Christ" contrary to your view. Secondly, since we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we were not chosen individually unconditionally.Click to expand...
I think we have now done this to death. Unless you have anything new and substantial to add, I have finished here. My experience is that folk never change their minds on these forums, but perhaps those reading this will be helped in some way. I am glad to see that you are a classic Arminian and not a semi-Pelagian. Thank you for a stimulating discussion. :thumbs: -
Martin Marprelate said: ↑You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hyper-calvin. The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.Click to expand...
You are incorrect, scripture teaches the elect were "in Christ" in eternity. "...according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, ( 2 Timothy 1:9)
Brother Joe -
mm
The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.Click to expand... -
savedbymercy said: ↑mm
What scripture says this ?Click to expand...
We both know the answer-none! -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite SupporterBrotherJoseph said: ↑Brother Saved,
We both know the answer-none!Click to expand...
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us... Brother Glen -
Martin Marprelate said: ↑Well, the clue is in the words 'everlasting love.' But if that doesn't satisfy you, then try 1:5.Click to expand...
Golly! Let me ask you, Van, is there any wording that the Holy Spirit could have used that would have convinced you?Click to expand...
Eph. 1:4-5 seems remarkably clear to me. Paul does not say that God chose 'people' before the foundation of the world. He chose 'us.' Who is 'us'? Christians! You and me! 'The saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' (v.1).Click to expand...
We were seen by God in eternity, in all our fallenness and sin, and He set His love upon us. God says, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy.....'. This is not corporate but individual. 'I will take you, one from a city and two from a family and bring you to Zion' (Jer. 3:14).Click to expand...
You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hyper-calvin. The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.Click to expand... -
Van said: ↑None of those references say we as individuals were "given" to Christ before creation. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that refers to a corporate election. ... This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.Click to expand...
2 Timothy 1:9 clearly states the elect must have been "in Christ" before the world began, "...his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
It says "us" and the "us" were "in Christ Jesus" and at that time received both purpose and grace before the creation of the world. You cannot give both mercy and purpose to nonexistent creatures, nor can nonexistent creatures be "in Christ Jesus", therefore the elect were "in Christ" in seed form before the world began. In similar manner, Adam, who was a type of Christ, had his wife Eve in his rib, before she was even made human (created), likewise Christ's wife, the church, was in Christ in seed form before they were created human beings. This is called the doctrine of eternal vital union.
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