Hello Bro Joe,
I can't spend much time right now because I'm going out. May I just refer you to the text I quoted to Van? Romans 16:7. 'Greet Andronicus and Junia........who also were in Christ before I was.' How can that be if we were all in Christ from eternity?
There's no question that all those to whom grace was given in Christ in eternity will be in Christ, but we are not actually ourselves in Christ until we believe. It's like that bike your parents bought you for your birthday. They've bought it; you're going to get it, but you don't actually receive it until the day.
Who are those ALL God has Mercy On ?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Jul 9, 2015.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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van
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
So whenever Christ was Chosen His Body the Church was Chosen together with Him, or He was a bodiless Christ ! Which is unscriptural !
So all those Chosen in Him are a corporate. The word corporate means:
United or combined into one body; collective
The corporation is meade up of the members of His Body !
I believe you use the word corporation in ignorance not understanding what it means, you probably just used it after seeing other men who deny election use it also out of ignorance. But a Corporation is made up of indidivual members !
The word means:
A group of people combined into or acting as one body. -
Continued Response:
By the numbers:
1) Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, those saved or to be saved and those lost and heading for destruction. The effort to rewrite 2 Peter 2:1 was shown to be unbiblical.
2) We are not chosen unconditionally, but through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
3) Future believers are not yet in Christ, John 17:20-21.
4) Everyone given to Christ arrives in Christ, John 6:37. They must be "in Christ" for Christ to say they will not be cast out. -
Also, Psalm 90:1 makes eternal vital union undeniable when David states, " Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations"
Further, we received all spiritual blessings not while in earth, but according to scripture "in Christ" in "heavenly places". "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (Ephesians 1:3)
The seed of Christ from which the elect come is eternal and is incorruptible, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). The "word" in this verse is not the written word, but the Greek word "logos" which is used in John 1:1 and 14 to identify Christ himself. Help Word studies states, "3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1)" See http://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm
God bless,
Brother Joe -
Note also, Brother Joseph, this view does not require people to be created before they are created. Also note future believers are not yet in Christ, John 17:20-21. -
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The verse does not address people who were placed in Christ during their lifetime, you are using your preconceived belief to interpret it, rather than let the verse speak for itself what it plainly teaches, it explicitly states, "...but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" What person do you know that had their lifetime begin before the world began? Also it states the grace and purpose was given "before the world began", how can one give grace and purpose to a nonexistent creature? Further, how can a nonexistent creature be said to be "in Christ Jesus"..."before the world began"? In my opinion, the only way one can reject what this verse so clearly proclaims is if they approach it with a preconceived doctrinal bias and thus twist it to meet such.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
God bless,
Brother Joe -
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Well one of us must be twisting the verse to our view. Perhaps both. :)
1) The first part of the verse says He saved us and called us. That is past tense, a done deal. Thus for you to say the verse does not address folks placed in Christ is a denial of the obvious.
2) The verse says the grace was given or granted us in Christ Jesus. Thus nothing was given or granted us before we were in Christ Jesus. Now God certainly established His purpose and redemption plan before the foundation of the world. We must agree on this because Jesus was foreknown as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Now how can something be granted or given us before we receive it? God's purpose and plan is to grant or give salvation to everyone God puts in Christ, to everyone spiritually baptized into Him. This redemptive action is predestined according to God's purpose. Therefore the purpose and grace was given us (each and every person God puts in Christ) before time eternal. This view does not twist the verse, it presents a straightforward reading of the text. It does not have individuals created before creation and put in Christ before Christ completes His sacrifice as the Lamb of God. That is your view and to my mind, it is all twisted and out of sequence.
3) Next I do not agree that the verse says we were in Christ before creation. Again, the purpose and grace was predestined according to God's redemption plan for anyone and everyone God places in Christ. And again, I point to John 17:20-21 were future believes are not yet "in Us." Therefore the view that people were "in Christ" before creation is untenable.
4) Note verse 2 Timothy 2:1, the grace is in Christ Jesus. Therefore anyone placed in Christ receives the grace that is in Christ Jesus, which had been granted to anyone put in Christ before creation.
5) It is easy to charge others with bias, but I submit my view reflects the straight up reading of text. It is just different from the one you were taught or derived. -
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On the other hand, van said that 2Peter 2:1 says that they were bought with the blood of Christ! Now does that verse say that? Yes or No? -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Christ lays down His life for His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish. They are those whom the Father predestined from the foundation of the world and gave to the Son to redeem. Christ will not lose even one of them. -
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Thank you! My point confirmed.... -
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