I agree Bob this can most definately be the case, and think in the vast majority it is.
I was merely showing that according to scripture Satan 'can' still go unto the Mount of God and be before the Lord if so permitted.
Who is Satan in this passage?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Dec 8, 2006.
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Allan,
Deuteronomy 32:39-41
"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. I lift my hand to heaven and declare: As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."
Psalm 7:11
"God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day."
Romans 1:18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness."
God's wrath "… was revealed when the sentence of death was first pronounced, the earth cursed, and man driven out of the earthly paradise; and afterwards by such examples of punishment as those of the Deluge and the destruction of the Cities of the Plain by fire from heaven; but especially by the reign of death throughout the world." (A. W. Pink)
Psalm 130:3 "If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?"
Jesus was weighted down with the sins of the people … he was in awful agony, bloody sweat … His plea that there might be some other way , "Let this cup pass" …his last dreadful cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Who shall stand when the Son of God Himself so trembled beneath the weight of God's Wrath? God's Divine Wrath was revealed on the cross. God's true regard for sin was revealed in the sufferings and death of Jesus. I would say Christ hates sin..no? And then what happened?
Luke 23
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Young Translation..
And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
We have gone over this before, and have show 2 times already where "Adversary" is not used as Satan in other passages. I am not saying you must agree, but after 3 times at this surely you now understand. So...let me ask again. KJV says this is satan, and it very well could be satan. Not another satan. If its "the satan", it is the satan. Now we got that out of the way lets reask the OP. Could the word Adversary be appled to another being other then "the one and only satan", just as it has been done in other passages?????
In Christ...James -
Isa 2:3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
As long as you are in the flesh satan is there also.
Mic 4:2And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. -
For as we see in the last chapter of the book...
Job 42
1Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
7And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
And why was Job say this? Why did Job cry out... God you are in full control? Read all of the 4 chapters before this statement and you will know.
In Christ...James
PS...why would you say this?
Do you think that whole Satan before God is a story made up to help the plot line?? -
Both of these passages are talking about Jerusalem the city. Try to find a verse that says a sinner can go to heaven. I can't seem to find one. -
I don't think a sinner can go to the 3rd Heaven where God is. I think we are on the mountain of the Lord now, climbing upward. I think the Law has aready went forth from zion and the word of the lord from Jerusalem. I think a person can stand before God and not physically be in Heaven where God is. I don't know if that is what you all are discussing or not. Nothing unclean has ever been there or ever will.
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Hello Allan,
Not that it matters, but your list is missing a few distinctions of Angels found in the Bible.
Also read eph 6:12, 1 pet 3:22 -
Thats my feeling anyway. I'm not trying to be dogmatic, just something to think about.
In Christ...James -
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He will...and He Did. :) You place to much on the word will. Christ says...been there done that. Satan has been (past) cast from Heaven. Christ told us he saw it happen. Why? Well as it turns out God hates sin..and Satan sinned.
Ok, that is fine...but when in the past as Ezekiel states it is in a time future AND at THAT time it is done Satan will be cast down a vanquished enemy before the kings of the earth (Isa 12 and Ezk 34) That casting out could not have happened yet as this has never been done but will be done at the coming of Christ as these are prophesies regarding that event. But I am curious as to when you believe it happened...
I have yet to see you bring forth scripture that refutes it other than God is Holy to which I do not dispute. But if God is soveriegn He can permit what ever is His pleasure or purpose or plan, agreed??
SIde bar concerning this:
And is Jesus not called in Rev The Bright and Morning Star. Now we know Jesus is not an Angel but this discription is concerning the Bright, exhaulted Majesty of His Glory. However it is hard to just lightly dismiss an interesting note here of Satan called the Son of the Morning and was a covering Angel of the Throne, and that specific group of Angels in Job called the Morning Stars - could these be a group of angels specifically centered on or around Christ Jesus on His Eternal Throne? (that is just a thought) -
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I have had a long day, but I will reply in the morning, Lord willing. This will give you a day off too. I spent all my free time or another thread, and I did not want to give you a puff cake post. :)
In Christ...James -
Anyhoo, that is ok as it doesn't matter really because it is not an important matter to actually have to substantiate... That said - However ... :laugh: Just kidding!
I do understand what you are getting at conserning the Sons of God and that though they ARE Angelic beings by nature they are NOT specifically identified as to what type or catagory or if it is a reference of the them as a whole. (I think the whole personally but that is due to 'one' specific verse - there are few times in scripture we should hang our hat on one verse)
I still think Satan is Satan there in Job however but that issue really is like step 8 on the 10 step ladder of importance concerning the Book of Job as it is more about God and Job. -
bene haelohim (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1) refers to men.
bene elohim (Job 38:7; Ps 29:1; 89:7 [89:6 English Bible]) refers to angels.
In Job some of God's children, probably including Job himself, present themselves before God. Of course this is done on earth, just as Samuel much later commanded the people to do, i.e., present themselves before the Lord (1 Sam 10:9). Satan going out from the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12; 2:7) doesn't place him in heaven any more than does Cain going out from the presence of the Lord (Ge 4:16). In fact, of all the occurrances of "Satan" in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 12, 12; 2:1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7; Zc 3:1, 2, 2; and 1 Ch 21:1), I can find none that indicates he has access to the throne of God where angels are guarding him and crying 'Holy, holy, holy" 24/7. OT biblical references rather place Satan on earth, going to and fro, walking up and down in it, tempting the doodoo out of David, whatever. That said, extrabiblical references tell quite another story. -
I never stated Satan HAD to be in Heaven but that scripture does not preclude this but does give references to that potential. Go back and re-read my postings.
I always have to laugh when people cite the four Angels are "gaurding" the Almighty and All Powerful God. As if God must be protected. They are there to PROCLAIM His Holiness not protect it, for how can you protect what you can not maintian??? -
Hello Allan...
Ok..i see 2 things here that needs addressed.
The age and everywhere. :)
I would take that you are dispenationlist going by your post. I would also guess by other views you hold to 7 dispenational times. This could be wrong, but I think i'm right. So then...if so. What age do we find Able?
"The Age of Conscience" it is hard to say what sin was. We do know there was sin. Murder would be one. The 1st time we see a hint of sin, is when God tells Cain..."sin is at the door". But I do not think this was sin, but rather God telling Cain that he is heading down the wrong path. Your thoughts?
Other then this, there is no revalation from God in this AGE. We do know there was sin, for in chapter 6 we are told that the earth was full of evil. Then we had the flood. 2 other things that we see here is a lot of people are born and.....get ready for this.....the other thing is....."sons of God". Hummm life is stranger then fiction. :) So...did Able sin? I would think so. But I do not know.
If however you are covenant, we will talk about that next time.
The 2nd thing to look at is...If God is everywhere is God in Hell? Hell is full of evil, can you picture Christ in hell? We just had a thread a week or so ago about a creed. The line..."and decended into hell"...most people do not like.
Why? Well...one reason...they cannot see Christ in hell. How do you feel about this? Did Christ go to Hell after His death? If not, can not we keep the Devil from Heaven?
Satan sinned and is now the father of all evil. I do not see a holy God inviting evil into his house. So if you play along with me, I want you to consider something.
Lets say THE" Adversary" is not Satan at all. Yes he is a person. But what if the Sons of God are other types of angels...or angel like "beings", that carry out some task for God. As you have rightly noted, adversary was a action in those other passages I posted. But there was a "person" that undertook the action. If you check the passage guess what. It is the angel of the Lord. Humm So...could this be the same angel like "being" back in Job 1-3? :)
You had asked this...
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You mean the 7 Spirits? I read a good long work on this about a year ago. It had a lot of good ideas...but if I shared it..It would mess it up. The writer didn't sell me on his ideas, but nor was he trying. He was more like throw them out there. I'm not sure I can find it or not..but I will look. Maybe ironside??? But that does not sound like ironside, he hardly ever took chances. I'll look and see if I can find it.
Thanks again...
In Christ...James -
Job was told by his friends...You must have done something.
Job says....No..I tell you I have not sinned.
Friends say....think Job...think....there must be some reason.
Job says...I tell you i have no idea why God did this.
Job says...God why? Show me why? I will fix it if you show me why.
God says...I do not have to show you why. I am God.
God says...did you make this Job? Did you make that Job? No Job...I made it all. Look at how powerful I am. Look at the wonders of the world. Job..I made the world. Who are you to tell me what to do?
Job says...You are right...I'm sorry.
God says...I'm mad at your friends for telling this about me.
God forgives..and all is well.
Job did not blame Satan anywhere in the book. Job knew who was in control. Job said God did it. God never at any time said Job you are wrong...that was satan. God just said..Who are you to tell me what i can and cannot do. That is the story of Job.
The book is not about Job...its about God.
In Christ...James -
I thing Adam and Eve might have filled them in but I think God had a hand still is speaking with Man from time to time then just as He had a sit down chat with Cain. Yes the earth was full of evil and man choose to live their own way, so we know they understood a different way was there too. God saw that Noah feared the Lord and we see that God called Noah Righteous for this. He also preached Gods judgment to come on them but what good would that do if they believe what they are doing is the 'right' way. Being decendents of Adam not far removed they all knew about God and obviously what He wanted but didn't care.
The son's of God in Gen just before the flood I would agree are men without question and have stated such.
Did Able sin? Scripture state for ALL have sinned and fall short... this would seem to include Able, even Enoch (and Elijah) who were take up into heaven (which heaven... Maybe space on a planet somewhere or maybe with God)
The contention is noted and I would agree anyone CAN be AN Advasariy with regard to it being a person much like Peter. My only problem it the scripture states it is 'The' Advisary with regard to not only a person but a person to whom the name is known to belong. There are others such as Rev and such but I do agree that even though we may Yes, Satan or No - we do know it was an angelic being. I guess it could be said like this James -
How do you know the Difference between The Spirit in scripture and the generalizations such as the spirit (angel) or the spirit (mans spirit) in scripture???
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Gods answering are basically establishing to Job that in his finite knowledge who was he to critisize his Creator. Being that his understanding was so limited he was not qualified to judge the do and don't of God as he does not know all that God DOES know and therefore WHY He does or allows them.
This is why the first time Job opens his mouth after Gods intial rebuke he states he will put his hand over his mouth and not say another word. If he was so innocent in his speach why does God even have to rebuke him??? We see Job repenting in 43:1-6 for speaking of things he knew nothing about nor did he understand.
It isn't so much about "I'm God, shut up and obey" Your view.
God is saying IMO "I am God and you were wrong in your assumed Judgment of Me. Lets see who is qualified to be God or be the Judge OF God... Ummm...looks like you don't measure up. God does even finish (we can assume) when Job confess all of this and that he assume what he does not know or understand. Job repents (which is why God stated the whole conversation in the first place) Then He turns His attention to Jobs friends so that THEY would repent as well. My View
The difference is a soveriegn God who demands obedience
vs
a soveriegn and loving God who desire a relationship in which obedience is willing given.
God didn't have to for once He dealt with where Job first faultered the rest Job knew was false because he had falsly ASSUMED.
God shows in His rebukes/refutes over and over that what He does is for a purpose and is known only to Himself. And because God knows WHY something is done He has the right to do it or allow it. God did NONE of those things TO Job but allowed Satan (the Advisary) the do it to him to show that Job would never turn his back on God, and Job didn't. He just began complain much later than I would have started.
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Hello Allan,
Noah was seen as just, only after God found favor with him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. The covenant was with Noah and his family. God said he would save 8 people. This is all that was saved. I think it is peter??...someone says Noal preached. No others came on the ark. This is way off subject, but as a Calvinist I wanted to point out a pure picture of election. :)
Yes...all have sinned. Able sinned i am sure, if only a little.
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