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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, May 29, 2014.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Do you believe that man finds eternal death pleasing to himself? Do you see what the extremism of Calvinism leads one into saying strange things that go against common reasoning?
     
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Well, you posted Romans 1 which I totally agree with when it shows man has a choice to see and believe. And then you said, "None of us will have an excuse if we fail in making heaven our home".....which I also agree with.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Good stuff! :thumbsup: Many are called, few are chosen.
     
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Since you brought it up, why do Calvinist preach like Arminians, and don't tell their hearers that even though they might say they believe, or think they believe, it could be that God has not chosen them to truly believe.
     
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    If man is responsible to believe, especially after seeing and having been shown as the passage declares, then man has a choice to make. It's not that he has not seen or cannot see. God says man can see and therefore has no excuse.

    Are you arguing against my beliefs here or are you trying to be agreeable? Choices are made through acceptance of the evidences presented. Thus as Romans 1 declares, man is without excuse, for man can see the evidences.

    Kinda losing me here again. She never trusted she would get the 20 back no matter what she said to him, right? Kinda like James saying "a man may say he hath faith, but can such a (said faith) save him?"

    Well I can agree with that, Amen! :thumbs: It seemed you began your post against my pov but then wrapped it up on my side. :applause:
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure I would call the Word of God an "idol", however, I do love to read and learn from it.

    Deu 30:19 - "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

    There's that dirty word again (ch#*-e) popping up in the Word of God, dog gone it! :smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Men are bound by their nature, just like trees are. An apple tree produces solely apples. Pear trees produce pears, and so on. There are many who do what we would call "good deeds", yet they, being sinners, taint those "good deeds", having dirty hands. Just watch people who do these deeds, the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, JW's, all do "good deeds", yet their dirty hands cause them to be sin.

    Those suicide bombers do what pleases them the most, they blow themselves up, being taught they will go to paradise and get 70 virgins. They chose what pleased them the most...yet they were taught a lie all along, and will spend eternity in torment for being deceived....
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Faith, which is the vehicle that grace goes through, is not a choice, but a gift from God Almighty. He gives it to whomsoever He wills. He also works through covenants, and can you find anywhere in the bible where He made a covenant with everyone w/o exception?
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    A deed in which we'd call it good, yet God saw it as evil....

    1 Chron. 13:

    "And they carried the ark of God in a new cart out of the house of Abinadab: and Uzza and Ahio drave the cart. And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets. And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God."(vss 7-10)


    This is also covered in 2 Samuel 6:7. Uzza was a Kohathite, and they weren't even allowed to look at the Ark(Numbers 4).

    Numbers 4:

    "And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron saying, Cut ye not off the tribe of the families of the Kohathites from among the Levites: But thus do unto them, that they may live, and not die, when they approach unto the most holy things: Aaron and his sons shall go in, and appoint them every one to his service and to his burden: But they shall not go in to see when the holy things are covered, lest they die."(vss 17-20)




    Uzza was a man who physically touched the Ark. Only the Levites were allowed to transport, seeing that God had given that tribe to be His messengers. Uzza didn't want to see the Ark fall to the ground and he kept it from falling. Yet, God was angered at him for touching it, and killed him for it.

    What God calls good and what we call good are EONS apart......


    And yet, Uzza was, and still is, responsible for his actions....
     
    #49 convicted1, May 31, 2014
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    steaver


    No one called God's word an idol...looks like you are out of bullets my friend if you have to resort to twisting my words or the other brethrens words to say what you want it to say, rather than what we said:laugh:

    :laugh: If all else fails wrest the verse out of context and twist it like a wax nose.....it's not like this was spoken to people who were already in covenant with God already:laugh:
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists preach the gospel accurately and urge men to repent and believe the gospel.It is your misunderstanding of both Calvinism and gospel preaching as a means of grace that makes you say such a thing.

    they do not tell their hearers this, because it is your flawed idea...why would they repeat such a foolish scheme as you have devised:laugh: you were on a roll last night:wavey:
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No steaver...unbelievers...do not believe...that is why they are unbelievers, they do not believe there is a real hell, or a white throne judgement.
    But they like you ...are wrong about these teachings.

    No we do not see that at all...the only thing strange is what you post about it, because it misses the mark...big time.:thumbsup:
     
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Faith is a gift because it comes from the word of Jesus and the word about Him. So it came from God through Jesus, not from man but from God.

    We are responsible for taking the gift not God.

    It is amazing men believe that God can't make an appeal to natural man draw them with loving kindness, but He can't make men responsible for their action to it. Our God can't be beneficence with His own words?

    God didn't put the fruit in Adams hand and make him eat, He doesn't make any one eat, but we live because we eat, physically. It is the same thing Spiritually. In order for us to be born again we must die to be reborn.

    I think that is why people reject the truth because they think death is a bad thing, but it isn't to die in Christ and be made alive in Him is a good thing.

    That is what it is about to die with Christ be buried with Him and be raised to live a new life because of Him, is there another Gospel?

    Oh yeah regeneration before this faith, nope not the Gospel I was taught from Christ. I see we need to die give up this life we already think we already have, be buried with Christ, to be raised in this new life born again through the enduring word of God.

    Faith comes from God through the words of Jesus and the words about Him.

    You must remember that faith without deeds is dead if you receive the words of our faith and not do anything with it you are dead and if I have faith that can move mountains and have not love I am nothing.

    Faith, hope and love the greatest of these is love.

    So you see faith the gift alone will not save you if you do not do anything with it.

    We are responsible, you are responsible to use His gift.


    Faith is how you learn about grace. How do you have grace without faith in it?

    My faith taught me that my wages of my sin is death and I can't pay it so I am saved by grace.

    If I paid my debt then I will not be saved because of the cost of it.

    I praise Jesus for my salvation.

    So you really believe trusting in Jesus to save me that I done something. Here is the scripture that tells me

    Psalm 73:28
    But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.

    Romans 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

    Psalm 22:5
    To you they cried out and were saved; in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

    1 Peter 2:6
    For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

    It is men who try to turn trust into a work and be ashamed of something we will never be put to shame for.
     
    #53 psalms109:31, May 31, 2014
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  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Faith is a gift of God, period. I know faith comes by hearing the word of God, and neither side refutes that, so its non sequitor. If all it took was to hear the preacher preach the word, then why does the bible say things like...

    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear....Matt. 11:15


    Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.....Matt. 13:9


    Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.....Matt. 13:43b


    And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear....Mark 4:9


    If any man have ears to hear, let him hear....Mark 4:23


    If any man have ears to hear, let him hear....Mark 7:16


    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear....Luke 8:8b


    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.....Luke 14:35


    If all someone had to do was hear the word, then the deaf are hopeless and helpless. It takes God giving sinful man the ears to hear with, the ears only the inner man can posses via regeneration.....
     
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Who doesn't have ears to hear it is the wise and learned those who already have the truth, the self regenerated without a word of truth in them.

    God has hidden the truth from them.

    We are to come to Him as a child listen and learn, regeneration before faith is ridiculous period.

    You are never given the reason why they don't hear you want me to assume your understanding is right. God tells us why they don't hear they are reaping what they are sowing they are responsible, pride goes before a fall.

    Their pride in their own election, them elected themselves.
     
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  16. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    The goats are the ones who don't have ears to hear with. The sheep are meek and humble before their Shepherd.

    Correct

    You said you were a Spurgeon Calvinist and you state this? Read Spurgeon and you'll find out he is a BIG believer in pre-faith regeneration. I read his book "On Calvinism", and he believed in it.


    They don't hear because 1) they don't have ears to hear with, and 2) they are not of His sheep.




    Read my last response, please,


    I'm not sure what you're conveying here....
     
  17. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Please Read the Gospel of Jesus Christ need to be proclaimed and think about this.


    Matthew 15:14
    Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

    2 Peter 3:16
    He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.



    Goats lead sheep into the slaughter pit at the time of Jesus. They are called Judas Goats they lead sheep to their death and jump off and don't die, these are the one's that are goats false teachers leading poor sheep to destruction while saving themselves they will get their just dessert. His sheep those who trust in the Lord over their own understanding will never be lead to those pits by them



    13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

    47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

    52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

    You are trying to make me the audience. Jesus war was against the Jewish leaders that didn't believe in Him. When He was referring to goats He was talking about them, these scripture prove this

    This is what I said earlier about that


    The Jews is His sheep He came into His own but His own received Him not.

    If they were His they would not of turned their back on Him since they did Jesus was disowning those who were His.

    We must eat to have life and Jesus is the manna that came down from Heaven to give life to the dead.

    Jesus said that His words are Spirit and life the very life we need to live

    I am not a sheep I am a dog who begged at His table and that is really who many of us are we are not natural branches we were included when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

    Some people think more highly of themselves than they ought to.

    The Jews the natural branches who have not been cut out for unbelief are being put back when they no longer continue in their unbelief no longer being disowned. The remnant that believed have remained.

    Why is the message first to the Jews then to the Gentiles, but in Christ we are the same?

    The message to the Jews is they have been cut out not trying to convince them you are them and they are not the chosen when they are.

    They will give you tons of scripture saying they are, here we are in the old testament

    Leviticus 19:34
    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

    Numbers 9:14
    “‘A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the Lord’s Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.’”

    Other sheep is not the Gentiles, Gentiles is living among the Jews. They are in Abraham's bossum.

    19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    You were made alive when you died with Christ and raised again to live a new life.

    Lord Christ my God help your people understand.



    Spurgeon said we must eat first to have life and He also showed regeneration before faith is ridiculous it is you who doesn't understand Spurgeon to me. You can't get plainer than that.

    He is a Calvinist not the extreme who believe in regeneration before faith He fraught against it. We are responsible to come and eat.
     
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  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I don't want to be called a "parrot" by quoting CHS, but I do so to show you, Brother Psalms, that CHS believed in pre-faith regeneration:




    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm
     
  19. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Why are they quickened because they listen and learned. He makes us willing, but we don't if we don't listen to the words of life, eat. The words of life the Spirit and life in Jesus word gives us life, it doesn't if we don't eat.

    You can't contradict Spurgeon as some do the scriptures.

    for he says: "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ. We will show you there are three kinds of life in Christ, as there are three kinds of death.
     
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    “To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.”


    -- C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon 979, “Faith and Regeneration”, Mar. 5, 1871


    Brother, those who listen and learn are His sheep. Those who don't are the goats. Jesus said My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they know Me, and a stranger they will not follow....paraphrasing here.

    But CHS did hold to pre-faith regeneration....
     
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