If the unregenerate man can only do wrong, then he is not free. Freedom by definition means;
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
If man is confined or restrained by his nature, then he does not have free will. You change the very definition of freedom.
And if man truly had free will before Adam and Eve sinned, but not afterward, then who is responsible? God is, because you believe God changed man's nature.
Why are there so many religions?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Jan 30, 2010.
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Maybe all you Reformed folks should get together and decide what you believe.
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Jesus said men could give good gifts to their children. And I believe Jesus truly meant "good" when he said this.
People take the one verse where Jesus said there is "none good but God" to an extreme. I think Jesus here was speaking of absolute sinless perfection. He must have, because he would not have then said men could give good gifts to their children. He also said some have good and honest hearts.
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Before Nathaniel believed on the Lord, Jesus said he had "no guile", which means he was completely honest.
John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Jesus gave Nathaniel a tremendous compliment here, saying there was no guile in him. Nathaniel was a sinner no doubt, but he was an extremely honest man. -
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No matter how a Calvinists may break it down, it's important to remember that Total Depravity does not mean that a given person, whether saved or not, is as evil as they can be, nor does it mean that they can never do good. It means that no one can do good unless they are enabled to do good by God. It also means that they cannot convert themselves, that is the work of God.
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Winman said: ↑But this makes me ask, why does God not allow unregenerate man to do good?Click to expand...
God allows them to do whatever they want so to speak, and there choice is not Him. So it isn't God fighting sinners off who want to do good and love Him, but it is more like God is standing before them with His arms open and they cant see Him and don't want Him. An unregenerate person doesnt seek God nor want God, and this is what prevents them from coming to God- Themselves.
The OP kind of causes me to realize what it looks like when unregenerate man try to find God or want God. The closest they can come is to decieve themselves and make their own god that they can control or that fits their religious status. The very fact that there are millions of religions and beliefs shows me 2 things-
1. man has an inner knowledge that there is a higher power as Romans 1 says
2. Man is totally depraved and has no idea how to deal with God other than trying to be his own god and have God fit in his agenda. -
I realize this is an old question, but Winman you are looking at it from the wrong angle. You are assuming that God is preventing people from doing good.Click to expand...
This would make God 100% responsible. This would absolutely be God preventing them from doing good, there is no way around it. -
God hasn't taken away man's free will. Man still has it. Unfortunately, the will of man is affected by his nature. An unregenerate person, one Paul refers to as in the flesh, will not seek God, love God, love God's law, etc. He will follow the course of this world. That does not mean that an unregenerate person will be as evil as he/she can be, but it does mean that person will not love the things of God and try to please Him. Paul says, "I delight in the law of God after the inward man." If you delight in God's law, want to keep it, want to serve God, it is because God has changed your heart and written this law on your heart. Unregenerate man has no desire for these things.
As far as an unregenerate man doing good, I yield to Paul in Romans 8:7 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. And again in Hebrews 11:6 - Without faith it is impossible to please God. An unregenerate person will not please God. They will not seek to please God. "They that are in the flesh do mind the things of the flesh." -
God hasn't taken away man's free will. Man still has it. Unfortunately, the will of man is affected by his natureClick to expand...
But you fail to acknowledge that according to your doctrine it was God himself who cursed man's nature. This would make God 100% responsible.
It is you that cannot grasp this very simple concept. -
Winman said: ↑But you fail to acknowledge that according to your doctrine it was God himself who cursed man's nature. This would make God 100% responsible.Click to expand...
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It is man that brought about his own downfall. Did God make Adam sin? No. Then how is God responsible for the effects of that sin? God told Adam that there would be consequences for breaking that one commandment, Adam did it anyway.
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Winman said: ↑But you fail to acknowledge that according to your doctrine it was God himself who cursed man's nature. This would make God 100% responsible.
It is you that cannot grasp this very simple concept.Click to expand... -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite SupporterJohnv said: ↑There's nothing in Reformed Theology that asserts that.Click to expand...
Very subtle, this guy.
Ask him to point the finger at the one who said exactly what he says was said, and he can't.
He misquotes everybody, calls God evil and the source of evil, then says it's the other one who called God evil. -
pinoybaptist said: ↑.......He misquotes everybody, calls God evil and the source of evil, then says it's the other one who called God evil.Click to expand...
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To winman's defense, I don't think the use of "DoG" was intentional. Let's not accuse him of it if this was not the case.
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Some Calvinists declare that God is the cause and author of sin. This from Dr. Samuel Hopkins.
Let us continue the testimony of Dr. Hopkins: he says, "God does superintend and direct with regard to every instance of sin. He orders how much sin there shall be, and effectually restrains and prevents all that which he would not have take place. Men are, with respect to this, absolutely under his direction and control." From this he proceeds to show that sin could not have originated in the creature, for why should the will put forth a volition contrary to the divinely constituted nature? Nor can it be in the sin itself, for upon that supposition the effect is its own cause, hence we must look to Him who is the First Cause of everything; speaking of the sinner he says, "Something must have taken place previous to his sin, and in which the sinner had no hand with which his sin was so connected as to render it certain that sin would take place just as it does;" his conclusion is, "Moral evil could not exist unless it were the will of God, and his choice that it should exist rather than not. And from this it is certain that it is wisest and best in his view that sin should exist. And in thus willing what was wisest and best, and foreordaining that it should come to pass, God exercised his wisdom and goodness; and in this view and sense is really the origin and cause of moral evil, as really as he is of the existence of anything that he wills, however inconceivable the mode and manner of the origin and existence of this event may be, and however different from that of any other."Click to expand... -
The Archangel Well-Known Memberpinoybaptist said: ↑But if winman says so, Reformed Theology must bow itself down and beat its chest and proclaim its guilt.
Very subtle, this guy.
Ask him to point the finger at the one who said exactly what he says was said, and he can't.
He misquotes everybody, calls God evil and the source of evil, then says it's the other one who called God evil.Click to expand...
Winman said: ↑You may convince yourself that you are choosing Christ, but you are not. The real you rejects Christ by your own doctrine.Click to expand...
The Archangel
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