Why become Catholic?

Sirach,

The scriptures make clear that I'm not. You may not agree with everything I believe, and someone else might have a more accurate view then me, but that doesnt mean I'm butchering the scriptures. I seek to let the scriptures interpret themselves. The Catholic Church decides what they want to be true...call it Tradition...then butcher the scriptures when they are asked to prove the tradition from the scriptures.

I said...

And you said...

1st, we dont all disagree, point blank. We all agree on multitudes upon multitudes of things...with no centralised Truth Dispenser telling us all what we must believe.

We disagree regarding some things. Why is that? Sometimes we just have a different slant on the same truth. Sometimes there is an element of truth in both sides. Sometimes one side it right and the other side is wrong. The reason for all of this? None of us have perfect hearing. God is God and we arent. But we are growing and growing and growing more in "grace and truth" as we seek God as our teacher.As we contend with our brothers regarding truth we become stronger and stronger.

Check me out according to the scriptures. Not accoding to some churchs traditions...I pay no heed to any of that. The scriptures.

Because we dont yet have perfect hearing. We are still here...and not in heaven. The scriptures teach us that now we see as through a glass, dimly...but one day we will see "face to face".

Many times its not really disagreeing on the essence of the argument, but rather just different slants on the truth. Many times both are correct in a sense. Sometimes one or both simply cant get rid of some error they have believed previously that needs to be swept out. They are not fully seeking truth with an open mind.

Whatever the case, we contunue to grow and learn as we contend for truth.

We were speaking...I believe...of the scriptures that admonish us to seeking God, with an open mind, to teach us truth from the scriptures, and I said...

And you said...

Very interesting...regarding the quotes you posted. It would appear from those quotes that the Catholic is indeed free to feed on Gods word with an open mind and heart. I'll come back to that in a little bit.

Regarding what I posted earlier concerning the Catholic being obliged to believe only what they are commanded to believe by the Hierarchy, I quoted from the Catholic Ecyclopedia, where it explains that the Teaching Magesterium of the Catholic Hierarchy are the ones who interpret the scripture for the Catholics, and the Catholics are obligated to believe as they are commanded to believe.

And...numerous Catholics on these threads here at BB have dutifully proven that true by argueing that the Catholic Church alone has been commisiosned by God to interpret the scriptures for the "lay" people.

But...you seem to like the Catholic Catechism.

So, I ventured into the Catholic Catechism and discovered that you were somewhat selective regarding what you quoted.

Here are several more quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic church:

"113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81)."

"119 It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88

"85 The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."

"87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms."

"88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these."

"100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."

(As Paul Harvey would say..."Now you know...the REST of the story.")


Earlier I said...

...because they disagreed with Catholic dogma.

And you said...

I just showed you


Mike

 

DHK

 

Anyway to answer Bob's original question.
I think the appeal of the RCC for would be members is the same appeal it has for filmmakers.
You only rarely see non-catholic churches in mainstream cinema.
Catholicism simply has more pomp and circumstance than Protestant churches. Rituals, incense, art, kitsch, the scale of it all, men in funny dresses, the feel that it actually has been around for over a thousand years. It's an emotional thing.

 

There are NO links - NO documents - nadda - nothing as quote from Peter, or Paul, or John or ... NT Apostles on "indulgences" on "Purgatory", on "sinless Mary", on "Prayers to Mary", on "perpetual Virginity" on "Praying to the dead", on "Praying for the dead".

(But of course I could say the same thing about "infant baptism".)

There are many things introduced by the RCC during the dark ages that ALL agree are not actually mentioned by any of the NT Apostles!!

So then the "links" that you get refer "instead" to doctrinal statements of error that come some time AFTER the NT apostles without actually "admitting" that the answer to your question above is "zip/nadda/zilch".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Very true.

And as Acts 20 points out "from among your OWN SELVES" these errors were to arise.

As Christ points out in Mark 7 from the ONE TRUE CHURCH's OWN MAGESTERIUM these doctrinal errors were ALREADY shown to arise "teaching for DOCTRINE the traditions of MEN".

So there is no question that the 2Thess 2:1-4 "apostacy" or falling away would come from WITHIN the church started by Christ.

As we find in 1Timothy 1 - the ERRORS were starting RIGHT THEN and THERE (in the church of Ephesus) and Timothy was ONE resource left in that church to try to put a lid on it. But in the case of Paul's writing to Titus - we see it being addressed "again".

Now we see that EVEN the RCC's OWN historians "admit" that paganism was injected into Christianity BY the Catholic Church!!

(See post to follow).

This could not BE any simpler!

The RCC is very clearly ONE of those error-injecting change-agents of the dark ages - in fact PRESIDING over the dark ages. The dark ages for mankind was the Golden Age of the Catholic Church!

The fact that you would bring out these important points - ask that we look at them, consider them, etc -- is instructive.

Thanks for doing it.

The idea that "you need Tertullian to tell you what Paul said and you need the Pope to tell you what Tertullian said and you need your priest to tell you what the Pope said and you need ... to tell you what the priest said" is a key error-injection chain fabricated by the RCC.

You can "see" its effect by simply GOING to Paul or the Gospels directly and then asking Catholics to comment on THE TEXT. As we saw in John 6 -- they flee the "details" in droves.


Because they cling to the error that man's traditions and error added over time are "certainly better than anyone picking up a bible today".

So though we HAVE PAUL HIMSELF speaking - why LISTEN TO PAUL?? When we have Tertullian??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

 

Roman Catholic historian and best-selling author Thomas Bokenkotter writes in "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" --

How much influence did this have on the RCC “really”?

 

However as Sirach points out - these Post-Apostolic insertions of paganism into the church and the ECFs that comment on the success of that process -- form the "primary motivators" for some to turn to Catholicism because they see the examples above as "better than picking up any Bible today".

Once you get to that point - maybe Catholicism DOES start to shine brightly - who knows?

In Christ,

Bob

 

And now on a new thread - we see the role that Constantine played during the time when paganism was most efficiently inserted into the RCC.

 

Or they might have come to the conclusion that sola scriptura doesn't work and be in need of a definitive interpretative authority fo Scripture; Scripture alone does not necessarily produce 'sound biblical reasons'

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

That is key!!

Associating an attack on the Acts 17:11 model of sola scriptura with PA's comment about their not giving "actual Bible reasons" for making the leap into the abyss - is very key. I have to agree with you completely - to give up scripture is to become subject to "any wind of doctrine" and all the darkest of traditions emanating from the dark ages of human history in Europe.

This is I think one of the most sound points you have made.

Your idea that the BIBLE is not a source for making Biblically sound arguments (by contrast) - is simply a self-conflicted statement that does not survive the reading of it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You have therefore misread or misunderstood my post. To adhere to 'Scripture alone' is to become subject to "any wind of doctrine" (as amply demonstrated by any number of posts on this Board), since Scripture can be quoted in support of virtually any doctrine (heck, the Devil quotes Scripture to Jesus in the Wilderness!), and is "the darkest of traditions emanating from" the Reformation

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Good analogy. So when the devil quoted Scriptre it is akin to the RCC quoting Scripture which resulted in throwing the world into an era we call the "Dark Ages." They kept the Word of God away from the populace, and only quoted certain Scriptures, and those out of context just like Satan did.
But the Reformers came along and exposed the RCC for what it was. They exposed its damnable heresies. They used the Word of God. They taught justification by faith. And a new era began. The Reformers actually used the Words of Christ: "You must be born again," words never spoken or explained in the Catholic Church. The Reformers used the Word of God, the Words of Christ, while the RCC used the word of God distorted by the devil.
Good analogy.
DHK

 

IF that were true then the Bereans in Acts 17:11 would have been IN ERROR to accept Paul after testing his teaching ONLY using WHAT Acts 17 SAYS they used!!

Sadly for the speculation you offer above - INSTEAD of the Acts 17:11 text saying "AND these NON Christians were so daring as to use the very RISKY and error prone method of SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF the things spoken to them by this highly honored appeared. (AS IF that could even be accomplished by a group of actual CHRISTIANS let alone NON Christians!!) Clearly they did not know that doing such a thing is pure foolishness and subjects them to just any old wind of doctrine. They will soon learn NOT to go to scripture and check out what they are told by someone claiming to be an Apostle" -- it actually reads in another direction entirely. In fact it reads the way we would expect if the Acts 17:11 sola-scriptura method were actually APPROVED of (As the text SAYS) and if the APOSTLES themselves are to be checked out as 2Cor 11 and Gal 1:6-11 say!!

But this is of course "an inconvenient detail" and I know how that does not sit well with the RCC. So I expect some complaints.

Basically one must choose between scripture and the doctrines of the RCC. At least we seem to be agreeing on that point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It is true that both the Devil and the RCC can be found to quote scripture in support of their false teachings. I don't contest that point. BUT I do contest the IMPLIED argument that one can not TRUST God's Word to SHOW that these two sources are in fact in error.

That is WHY Paul ARGUES that we USE this method in Gal 1:6-11 whether it is with supposed RC APOSTLES OR even a supposed ANGEL FROM HEAVEN!!

Get it?

That is WHY Paul argues that we USE that SAME method that SHOWS HIM to be VALID - when evaluating a supposed RC Apostle (as he tells us in 2Cor 11).

Paul is being entirely consistent as he urges that the Word of God CAN BE TRUSTED in these VERY scenarios where FALSE apostles speak and where Satan HIMSELF speaks in disguise!

How "instructive".

How "Consistent".

How "Logical" and "Biblical".

No wonder this entire line of instruction given by Paul must be "ignored" to make the leap into the abyss.

No wonder it is THIS VERY focus on God's Word that must be abandoned to swallow the worst errors from the dark ages of human history in Europe! The people of that age were forced to live without access to the Bible the way many today CHOOSE to live without paying attention to the "Details" of scripture!

In Christ,

Bob

 

And how do I know that Bob and DHK are not quoting Scriptures to support their "false teaching"...?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Exactly!

(And herein lies the fatal flaw of sola scriptura.)

 

Well I was a Catholic when growing up till about age 14, so I dont really remember much about it. My Mother was a Catholic Nun until she married my Father then that ruined put an end to the Nunnery, of course.

I would say that probably many who are Catholics become Catholics because of the following things...

1. POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE: The unsurpassed music, the rituals, the incense, everything becomes a real "show". It is impressive to alot of people.

2. I AM IN THE REAL CHURCH. The claim that the Catholic Church is THE original church and that everything was handed down to the church fathers. And the idea that the Protestant churches are just broken off from the "real" church.

3. CHURCH FATHERS DEFINE THE TRUTH FOR ME. To some it must be comforting and easier to just have the idea that some "church fathers" are going to define for them "what is truth" instead of having to search the Scriptures for themselves. It relieves them of the burden and gives them the same feeling that many put forth today that says "I really am not responsible for what I believe or what I do". You dont really have to think much and if curcumstances change you dont have to have any basic foundational understanding of the Bible that would enable you to adapt to anything that is troubling in the world because you cna just leave it to the latest Pope or church official to tell you "what's what" today. It's like, "okay today am I supposed to ask the churches I persecuted for forgiveness or am I supposed to claim my church is infallible and act as if they could never have done anything wrong?" and you could just leave that messy decision up to your church official or up to whoever the latest Pope is at the time.

4. THE SACRAMENTS. If I believe in "The Real Presence" then I can just do a "sacrament" and the act of doing the ritual in itself will "make me holy". Hey thats great! I dont have to have any real change of heart. Sprinkle a little holy water on me and Im good to go! That would be nice.

5. And the INDULGENCES. Could you just image that? Convenient. I can just pay my way into heaven or out of purgatory or whatever. That would be nice too.

6. CONFESSION TO A PRIEST. This would be wonderful. I remember when I was a kid ... not knowing any better, I would go to Confession, tell the priest my sins, and then come home and say my "Our Fathers" and my "Hail Marys" as fast as possible to get them overwith... and presto! My sins are gone! "Bless me father for I have sinned... let's hurry up and get this thing overwith so I can go out and do it again!" That was my little rhyme I made up. It makes sinning so easy.

----

I was just sitting here thinking of what someone might actually like about being a Catholic... if you had a certain mindset... and thats what I came up with on short notice.

Of course there are probably plenty of other things that might entice one to become a Catholic, but of course these reasons I gave arent so obviously put forth. I mean the Catholic Church doesnt come out and SAY these things. Like, Hey join our church and you can have a free get out of jail card or get out of purgatory card. They dont put it that way but thats what it amounts to, really.

I would hope nobody would actually have enjoyed the persecution part and the torture and murder of thousand of people... but then again, Protestant Churches who bow to the Pope by keeping the Sunday Sabbath commandment instituted by the Catholic church are some day going to join in the persecution of those who refuse, as well.. thats where the making of the "Image to the Beast" comes in.


Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

But then again, many Catholics are trying to live up to the light that they have and are ignorantly doing what they do. Lots of them are far more dedicated to God than many Protestants are.... and God looks at the heart. And many will come out from the deceptions they are under when the light is presented to them, while many Protestants will not. Actually many Protestants are more eager to get Sunday laws passed then Catholics are and to force those who wont comply to submit to their ideas, and are trying to use politics and the government to enforce their Sunday laws. They are going to persecute those who refuse to comply and the spirit of persecution will rise once again.

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rv:13:
11: And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12: And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15: And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

Ironically, most of this can be applied to some Baptist churches and people who choose to go there:

1. The praise music. It provides an emotional high.

2. It is the real church. The Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Episcopaliens, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Methodists have all been corrupted and are heretics.

3. Church fathers define the truth for me--I think lack of individual thinking is spread through every church and denomination.

4. The legalism. If I don't do A, B, and C, that means I'm a good Christian!

5. Well, we don't have indulgences. :D But they aren't so easy to get now, and you can't get them for the deceased any more. And a lot of people still try to get holy by doing good things even among the Baptists.

6. Confession of sins. If you don't have the right attitude, it's just as easy to sin, "confess," and sin again while in a Baptist church.

I like the Catholics' anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia stand. I think they're tough too--I went to a mass for John Paul II that was standing room only, and while the gospel was read everyone knelt, even those kneeling on flagstones.