Paul thought that the Christians He knew could fallaway from Grace, IF they left Christ teaching to be justified by another teaching.
Please don't think these people were NOT christians. If that were the case then Paul being in tune in spirit would not ignorantly address unbelievers.
He simply warns them. It's that simple.
Just a thought </font>[/QUOTE]Very true.
1. You can not "fall" from a position you never had.
2. There is no such thing as "loster" for sinful lost humanity. Nor is there "Lost but still in grace". The bible never speaks to the lost about "better more improved ways to be lost" and the danger of failing to remain in such glorious lost states.</font>[/QUOTE]Thus we are well advised to go back to those "perseverance" motivation texts in scripture and see for ourselves that they do not appeal to "the lost to remain in a good lost condition rather than a bad lost condition"
Why Believe One can Lose Salvation??
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Tazman, Jan 24, 2006.
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And keep in mind that they would be "persevering" unto something that would occur shortly, in their lifetimes!
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Eric,
You bring this up a lot. Teaching relative to time.
The bible does teach on things happening soon, but not every time is "Soon" limited to there life span. Christian history shows us that people started losing hope because they were constantly told "The Lord would return soon", but their fathers died waiting on Him. Soon is Soon, but its not limited to our life time or span in most cases.
Peter says:
Peter breaks down time with respect to his message:
These things exist beyond their lifetime for us as well. -
While I don't believe the final "coming" of Christ and judgment occurred then, still, in order for those passges to make any sense, I have seen that we must understand the end of the Temple as what was promised for them shortly. That would be the only reason salvation seemed so unstable for them.
Else, if this is simply extended to all the rest of us, it greatly stretches the language used to them. If God wanted to convey shortly to any time period, that could have been made clear. In addition, none of the Church age would be any better off that the OC, if salvation would always be so uncertain, and based on the person's own actions. -
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Yes; as long as the institution of "the Law" was still there, apparently, the full benefit of salvation was secured when that was removed.
Remember, it says those who endure "shall be" saved. If you apply this to us, then nobody is presently saved, and the Armstrong position is right. -
Eric,
Man, thats sick!
DO you realize to the extent you are going in order protect your Theology?
You wrote:
1.5 Is life with Christ (ups and down but not turning away). You are being saved and You can know that. If you claim to know Christ and do not walk in His steps then you know were you stand. If you stand with Christ then you are being saved.
2. The Final is when you die and/or Jesus return.
1 + 1.5 + 2 = salvation from beginning till end.
The middle (1.5) is where you perservere with His mercy and support.
God is not wrong when he condemn. -
Eric,
Was there "Grace" in the Old testament?
Think about it, People sin then just a little less than you (Just joking), but really they surely sinned more than they could sacrifice. You think God "zapped" them at every point the didn't keep up? No, but He was merciful. Their faith saved them also by GOd's grace. It was not until they turned from God and died on the account of two or three witnesses as unbelievers (not remembering their God).
You people Judge too harshly Gods treatment of his faithful people through covenants He instituted. :mad:
Lack of grace was for the unbelieving you dare apply this to those who obey God under a different covenant. -
It was easy for O.T. saints to backslide because they were not indwelled by the Spirit of God as N.T. Christians experience the Holy Spirit.
Only Jewish kings, prophets and some artisians who worked on or in the Temple experienced the Holy Spirit.
Yes, the O.T. and N.T. saints had God's covenant blessings on their lives. They had the sacrifices and the Law to live up to--while we enjoy Jesus' atonement, baptism into Christ, unction, indwelling and Baptism into the Holy Spirit.
There is a vast difference in the Abrahamic, Mosaic and Jesus covenant--though He was behind and in both covenants of grace [Hebrews 8:6]. -
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
So to say that "We have the Spirit" and "They did not" is arrogant, because every second of the day with have a choice to make. We are compelled towards Righteousness (By the Spirit), but we can ignore the Holy Spirit Also. God did not Disable our ability to make a choice outside the Spirit.
Therefore YOU and I can behave Just as they did and be treated Just as they were with respect to Loving God.
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“ …the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand (present tense), by which you are also saved if you hold fast the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. (1 Cor 15:2)”
“ Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Romans 11:22)”
“ And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard. (Colossians 1:23)”
“For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. (Hebrews 3:14)”
Scripture also says:
"God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6)
"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up." (James 4:10)
"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
John wrote to Christians:
“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place unless you repent.” (Rev 2:5)
“Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent.”(Rev 3:3)
However, how does one abide in Christ? Well, by keeping His commandments:
“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)
Also by partaking of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist:
“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” (John 6:56)
Actually the two go hand in hand. We’re nourished by our communion with Christ in the Eucharist and are enabled by His grace given therein to keep His commands.
“You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. (James 2:24)”
Also we're judged and given eternal life according to our works:
“God ‘who will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; and to those who are self-seeking and who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil. (Romans 2:6-9)
However, the wicked carnal servant will be cut in two and have his place assigned with that of the unbelievers. (Luke 12:46)
So though one is not saved by works, he is not saved without works either.
Listen to Paul (speaking to Christians): “If you live according to the sinful nature you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (Romans 8:13)
CHRIST HIMSELF said: “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5:28-29)
You can’t spin this to apply to AD 70 or only to the “Old Covenant”. This occurs at the end at the final judgment.
The whole attempt to relegate the conditional and warning passages to before some magical cut-off time such as 70 AD--a position unheard of in the Church until apparently very recently --shows how bankrupt the OSAS/antinomian position really is Scripturally. Christians--Jews and Gentiles--faced severe persecutions even after 70 AD and the temptation was always there to fall away. There was nothing magically different about Nero's persecution than to, say, Domitian's (when John wrote Revelation) or Diocletian's or any in between (or any afterwards for that matter), and salvation was no more or less "stable" after AD 70 than before. There was no indication that those suffering under Domitian's persecution (or any subsequent ones) thought: "Pshew! At least we're living after the Temple's Destruction so if we fall away in this persecution we're still 'saved', praise Jesus!" -
What is more arrogant is to think that everything is the same as it was under the Law, and to observe that they could not keep the Law back then, but "we today are doing such a better job because we have Christ".
[ March 06, 2006, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ] -
Once again, if your interpretation is right, then one still wonders what the big difference with the OT was. Yeah, we have Christ, but according to Tazman, it is arrogant to say we have His Spirit and they didn't. To be consistent on your side, there is no difference. But the fact that the covenants overlapped explains it all. Remember, all of these people in the NT were the firstfruits. They were given more (as they saw Christ, or His apostles and their supernatural works) , and more was expected from then, and in the end, they are the first in the resurrection.
Who has done "good" and who has done "evil"? Where is the line? It is either perfection, or we are evil. Or, we are declared righteous. (As for your class of people "falling out of Christ"; I'll address that last).
I know these theories are far fetched, but on all counts, they seem to explain so much, and I think we should look into them for some of these answers which have eluded us for so long. Once again, for eternal security to be so constantly debated from the same scriptures, we all must be missing something; or perhaps "come clean" and confess to the world that the Bible contradicts itself. (Everyone has come to that conclusion regardless from watching all of this!) These theories sound to me like a much better alternative than that.
After the Temple system fell, persecutions by the Romans continued, but the one thing they had the earlier ones didn't is that the "persevering unto salvation' was over, and they now had eternal security. So those Romans could take their lives, but nobody could now take their souls (as the corrupt OC institution in effect could). -
And are you sure you are doing this PERFECTLY? If you struggle with a sin, are you denied salvation until you get over it, (or are you pardoned for "trying hard"? Just where is "the line"?) These are the questions that works righteousness always brings up, and as much as you chide "OSAS antinomianism, your brand of churches seem to be the worst havens of that type of "get away with as much as one can and then repent" mindset. You still are falling into the trap people fell into under thew Law-- thinking that scaring people straight is how to save them.
How many devout Spirit led christians do we see up and one day decide "OK; I'm tired of this stuff; I renounce Christ and believe in atheism or some other religion now"?
Many in the past were "devout" in the sence of being raised in churches, and knew all the doctrine, and went a long with the practice, and all, and then saw some hypocrisy, or other corruption, or they just felt like sowing wild oats, and felt the Church was suppressing this, and then "rebelled" and "went int ot he world". With all the talk from many conservatives of how Christian the nation was up until a couple of generations ago, much of the people in our parents' generation fit this bill. Both of my parents have this "reverse testimony". (one being "devout", but then being silenced when asking questions, and turned off by all the racism, etc. and the other just "going along with it" to please parents until coming of age, and then leaving it behind.
But these are not people who were "in Christ". They were nominals, and from listenng to many of them; they did not understand Christ and the Gospel at all. Much of the old-time Church was a purely cultural institution, and childred were forced to go, and taught all the basics in Sumday School, etc. all under the premise that "the good" go to Church. That was not being "in Christ". It was as I have said; precisely a works-based system, devoid of the Spirit (they spoke of the "spirit; but you cannot be yielding to the Spirit when trying to work your way to eternal life in your "flesh". That once again is the real meaning of "flesh", not just what you call "living in sin".
Of course, the conversation keeps swinging back to "those who rebel", and deliberately "walk away", as a hypothetical situation in which "surely", salvation must be revoked then! But what you're really trying to push is this daily in and out of salvation for every sin idea, where you helplessly "fall out" not necessarily for deliberately turning away, but for not doing enough. Sorry, but once again, if you want to teach that, then noone will be saved. -
Oh, how could I forget?
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Doubting Thomas,
As for the "haughty spirit" remarks, I think you are right on the money about that.
Jesus told the people that they needed to "continue" in His word and then they'd truly be His disciples, but they said "We be Abraham's seed"
In other words they viewed themselves as being the favorites of Heaven who couldnt be lost no matter what they did.
Talk about a haughty spirit!
John 8:
31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
In my opinion, the Once Saved Always Saved bunch posess this same haughty spirit but do not realize it. They just think that they have some sort of a "automatic pass" to heaven no matter what they do.
Claudia -
We be Abraham's Seed!
We have a sure place in Heaven no matter what we do!
We are the chosen ones!
...things never change, do they? -
I am of Christ. I have accepted His blood sacrifice on Calvary's cross for the payment for my sin.
I am eternally secure because of my love for Christ. He has sealed me eternally with His Holy Spirit. I cannot lose my salvation.
It is those who claim they can lose their salvation who do not believe in the redemptive power of the sacrificial blood of the Lamb.
Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Our God has given us the promise that His wrath will not be upon those who have placed their faith in His Son, because they through believing are passed from death unto life.
Praise His Holy Name! -
Even Hymenaeus and Philetus it is said that they '...erred concerning the truth' not that their salvation was ended or deleted by Jesus. [II Timothy 2:17-21].
They had caused confusion in the church not only in their own beliefs but that also of some other true believers in Christ. They, of course, believed that the resurrection from the dead had taken place already; this was a mistake.
What does the Lord say? 'Nevertheless, the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are His. And in verse 20 the Word says that in God's Kingdom their are people who have characters of 'gold' while others in their Christian life offer only something of the value of wood and of clay, as to their devotion and 'good works' done in the Name of the Lord.
We see this in our days; it is sad but it is true. This gives some preachers on T.V. some hope as to the after life. Yes, they love Jesus and preach the best they know, and yet they do not always get everything right.
The Lord is God of mercy as Paul declares in II Timothy 1:15-18. He is merciful toward those who have faultered in their faith.
I do not think any of us always run in 'top form' before the eyes of our enthroned Lord and God.
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