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Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Mar 1, 2018.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Romans 11:32, "For God hath shut up ALL unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon ALL."

    ALL sinned.
    So ALL need mercy

    Less creative writing - more Bible please

    Matthew 5
    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

    Romans 9
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

    An example where God speaks to Moses and declares Israel to be worthy of death - yet "shows them mercy" anyway.

    22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    It is God having compassion and showing mercy EVEN on those whom he knows will choose death.
     
    #21 BobRyan, Mar 2, 2018
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "BobRyan,]


    Romans 11:32, "For God hath shut up ALL unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon ALL."

    ALL sinned.
    So ALL need mercy



    more bible...sure>
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/QUOTE]
     
    #22 Iconoclast, Mar 2, 2018
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5
    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

    Romans 9
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

    An example where God speaks to Moses and declares Israel to be worthy of death - yet "shows them mercy" anyway.

    22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    It is God having compassion and showing mercy EVEN on those whom he knows will choose death.[/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure what your point is... I am not arguing for universalism. I am pointing out that the very Bible that you point to - shows God having mercy on the lost. This is not the same thing as claiming that once the lost go to hell -- they find mercy there.This is the Arminian position and it is what we find even in Romans 9.

    By contrast your complaint about 2 Peter 3 is your claim that God most certainly does not have mercy on all ... just on the "few" of Matthew 7.

    But in fact God does have mercy on all - and those that reject it will ultimately experience punishment and death - but that is not because of a lack of mercy on God's part or some sort of arbitrary selection in his mercy.
     
    #23 BobRyan, Mar 2, 2018
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”

    "God so loved the WORLD     that HE gave" John 3:16.

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

    God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

    God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


    Matt 23
    37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
    38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

    Hosea 11
    :7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
    Though they call them to the One on high,
    None at all exalts Him.
    8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
    How can I surrender you, O Israel?
    How can I make you like Admah?
    How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
    My heart is turned over within Me,
    All My compassions are kindled.

    Ezek 18
    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
    31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
    32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

    2Cor 5
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.


    Isaiah 5
    3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
    Judge between Me and My vineyard.
    4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
    Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
    5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
    I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;

    John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”[/QUOTE]
     
    #24 BobRyan, Mar 2, 2018
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  5. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    No, the best reason not to be a Calvinist, is because nothing beats being a simple "Christian", a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. As the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians, which I will expand, "did John Calvin die for you?"
     
    #25 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
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  6. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    John 3:16 deals with God universal love for all mankind, and the fact that IF any of these who are part of the human race, were to "believe", then they too will be saved. Interestingly, the KJV, with its Calvinistic influence (see their misrendering of the Greek in Acts 2:47, to support "Calvinism"!), chose to translate Greek adjective, "πᾶς" (all), in John 3:16, by the universal "WHOSOEVER". The 1611 KJV reads, "that whosoeuer beleeueth in him".

    Revelation 22:17 corresponds with John 3:16, "The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.".
     
    #26 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
  7. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting that this passage that you quote from, is actually speaking to born-again believers. It says that these were "sanctified" (ἁγιάζω), never used for the unsaved in the New Testament. Then, we also have the words, "His people", showing who these "sanctified" are. Therefore, contextually, it says that those who are "born-again", can indeed forfeit their salvation, or else these words amount to nothing.
     
    #27 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
  8. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Not many of the Calvinistic or Reformed camp really explain Paul's words in Romans 9, a chapter they much misuse thinking it supports their form of salvation. In verse 22, which you have rightly highlighted, Paul says, "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" WHY would God ENDURE with MUCH (πολλῇ, "a great deal of") PATIENCE, with those who are on their way to hell? Simple answer is found in passages like Ezekiel 18, 33, where we read of God telling the wicked, that He takes no pleasure in their death, but rather that they repented and turned from their wicked ways, and got themselves saved. This is what the entire Book of Jonah is about. God sending the Prophet to one of the most wicked nations at the time, who were hell-bent on destroying Israel. YET, God, Who is Rich in Mercy, desired that these hell-deserving sinners (like I am), also share in His Wonderful Love, Compassion, Mercy, Forgiveness, Grace and Salvation. Which some on this very board deny that God can LOVE and want to SAVE any of these! As the Apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you. does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.". Where the best textual evidence is for the reading "you" (ὑμᾶς), which is older by 100's of years than the reading in the KJV, and others, "us" (ἡμᾶς). The former includes the "scoffers" in verse 3, and ALL sinners; the latter, to the "Christians" that Peter was writing to.
     
    #28 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure what your point is... I am not arguing for universalism. I am pointing out that the very Bible that you point to - shows God having mercy on the lost. This is not the same thing as claiming that once the lost go to hell -- they find mercy there.This is the Arminian position and it is what we find even in Romans 9.

    By contrast your complaint about 2 Peter 3 is your claim that God most certainly does not have mercy on all ... just on the "few" of Matthew 7.

    But in fact God does have mercy on all - and those that reject it will ultimately experience punishment and death - but that is not because of a lack of mercy on God's part or some sort of arbitrary selection in his mercy.[/QUOTE]
    What you assert and what the bible declares are two different things.
     
    #29 Iconoclast, Mar 3, 2018
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Spoken like a good Calvinist, except that you don't understand 'free will.'
    Matthew 23:33. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."
    So good people, of their own free will, do and speak good things, and bad people, of that same free will, do and speak good things. The problem is that there are no good people since the Fall. '......Although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth' (Genesis 9:21; c.f. 6:5). 'As it is written, "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understand; there is none who seeks after God.......there is none who does good, no, not one"' (Romans 3:10-12). So by free will, there is no one who could be saved.
    But the promise of God is, "I will put My laws in their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Hebrews 8:10). It is God who makes the tree good-- sovereignly, monergistically-- and then His people obey of their own free will (Psalm 110:3).
    Once you understand what I've written above, you will have no trouble with this. We all know that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:32). A judge might well weep as he sentences a young criminal to death or to life imprisonment, but at the same time he will take satisfaction that justice has been done and righteousness upheld. The word of God goes out into all the world, 'But men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). They preferred wickedness, not because they were forced to do so, but of their own free will. If God had not predestined a great crowd of sinners to redemption through Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit, there would be none saved. You ask why the crowd is not bigger? I answer, you do not know how big the crowd will be (other than great) because Revelation 7:9 says the crowd cannot be numbered. But if there were only one person in heaven, God would still be merciful because he would not deserve it.
    I praise God that He zaaaapped me to choose of my own free will as He dictated. No hope for me otherwise.
    Indeed we do. ;)
    I have no objection at all to you posting whatever you like-- all of them are easily answered-- but you need to understand that it takes less time to ask a question than it does to answer it. If you produce your texts one at a time, I'm sure someone will explain them to you. But perhaps you would sooner spam us with myriad texts and then fool yourself that you cannot be answered. :Rolleyes

    .
     
    #30 Martin Marprelate, Mar 3, 2018
  11. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    So, what about Jesus when speaking to the Jews who wanted to murder Him? When He tells these Jews;

    "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

    Not as some would have it read, "they were not able to come", which the Greek text does not allow. Further, in verse 34, Jesus tells these same Jews, "but I say these things so that you may be saved". To EVERY Jew that Jesus spoke to, He did so because He wanted them to be saved.

    The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as "convicting" the whole human race of sin, because of their refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour (see John 16:1-8). The ONLY reason that they can REFUSE, is because they have a WILL that is capable to either ACCEPT or REFUSE, this is how the Good Lord has made every human being.
     
    #31 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

    "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4.

    Both point to the sovereign action of God... both allow free will.

    God sovereignly selected the Jews as evangelists. "He came to them"..

    Matthew 23
    37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

    At first i thought you were trying to defend the Calvinist position.

    Very different from "to as many as He zaaaapped to choose as He dictated".

    So then we have two very different models .. one is actually in the Bible.

    The other is merely much-imagined via extreme inference.

    First we notice that selecting them as "His own" was His sovereign choice.. not theirs. They did not "choose themselves" as "the chosen people" then argue God into going along with it.

    So then with a great deal of creativity you can look at this and conclude

    What amazes me - is that if Calvinists can re-imagine this list of texts in their favor - then why do they complain so much to see them posted?

    Your creativity - is truly awe inspiring!

    Neither of those statements is accurate -- creative "yes".
     
    #32 BobRyan, Mar 3, 2018
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't know what you want me to say. There is no one saying, "Oh, how I wish I could come to Christ, but I .....just.....can't .....do it!" They reject Christ of their own free will because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts.
    Yes, as I said just now, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. If these people will believe they will be saved, but they won't because the will reject Christ of their own free will.
    But the whole human race is not convicted of sin. I do door-to-door evangelism and I can assure you that the greatest problem is convincing people that they are sinners. When our Lord speaks of the 'world' in John 16:8, He is not speaking of every single person in the world; He is speaking of Jew and Gentile alike. The Gospel is going out to the Gentiles.
     
    #33 Martin Marprelate, Mar 3, 2018
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Why are you repeating this post. Do you want me to repeat my reply?
     
    #34 Martin Marprelate, Mar 3, 2018
  15. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    I see that at least you admit that we all sinners, have "free will", which is an important start. I know that no sinner can come of their own to Christ for salvation, and doubt if any sane Christian would believe in this! The "convicting" of the sinners is just that, He shows them their sins and it is then up to them if they WILL come to Jesus, or, as Stephen says in Acts 7, "you always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did", and thereby reject the Gospel Message. Interesting that in Acts chapter 10, we read of Peter being sent to Cornelius, who was " a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God" (verse 2). What do you make of Peter's words in verses 34-35, "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to him"? . The Gospel is the power of God that leads to salvation, but unless the sinner is WILLING, they cannot be saved.
     
    #35 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is "with the text".

    You have a circular argument that presumes calvinism "as the test" for its "conclusion for Calvinism". Assuming the salient point of your own argument is not the most compelling form of response.

    In the text of Matt 23 and of Matthew 7 the good fruit comes from good trees... bad fruit from bad trees.

    In Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

    The change for the lost is just as Romans 10:9-11 would have it 'choosing'.

    And the ability for the lost to "choose" is because 'I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 the supernatural work of God who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the "FEW" of Matthew 7.

    Your response to the texts I gave you appears to be "lets look at different texts than those".

    Only if you first delete the work of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him"' -- a "DRAWING" power that even Calvinists freely admit - "enables all the choice that depravity disables" for the lost.

    How "instructive" to the objective unbiased Bible reader.

    Does not add "AND THEN they will choose to believe and accept the Gospel" which is the much-imagined ending to Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 that Calvinists have speculated.

    That "monergistic" insert is creative writing not scripture. You knew that .. right?

    Both sides of the debate agree that after the lost person is born-again obeying the law of God happens as they choose of their own free will to walk in the Spirit and thus have power to obey.

    Where we differ is in the texts you deleted from your posts that were in my posts.. Where we differ is that Arminians believe Romans 10:9-11 ... Calvinists do not.

    I fully understand the creative writing "you have written" -- I just prefer the Bible instead .. including the details in the Bible texts in my post that you keep deleting and not responding to.

    I think we can all see that.


    No robot could have said it better and that statement of yours is exactly how I view Calvinism's doctrine. Which is why I point out just EXACTLY how the scriptures you keep deleting "exactly refute" your claim.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

    "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4.

    Both point to the sovereign action of God... both allow free will.

    God sovereignly selected the Jews as evangelists. "He came to them"..

    Matthew 23
    37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
     
    #36 BobRyan, Mar 3, 2018
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Again "attention to detail" would help. There are two reasons for that -

    1. I repeat both my post and yours in sequence so the reader does not have to sift back through the posts and "put it all together" because frankly I love how this is working out.

    2. I repeat it because you keep deleting the details of scripture that in my posts in your response simply because you find them irrefutable. I then have no choice but to repeat the unaddressed irrefutable texts that don't fit in to your view.
     
    #37 BobRyan, Mar 3, 2018
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Calvinist response to this..

    Matthew 23
    37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

    Perfect example of Calvinism failing to survive the details in the text

    Isaiah 5
    3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
    Judge between Me and My vineyard.
    4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
    Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
    5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
    I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;

    God says "what more could I do that I have not done?"

    Calvinisms says "oh I know... I know...zaaaapped me to choose of my own free will as He dictated"

    The text that has "gone missing".. it only exists in Calvinist creative writing.


    2Cor 5
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

    ======================================================

    John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”

    "God so loved the WORLD     that HE gave" John 3:16.

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

    God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

    God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


    Matt 23
    37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
    38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

    Hosea 11
    :7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
    Though they call them to the One on high,
    None at all exalts Him.
    8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
    How can I surrender you, O Israel?
    How can I make you like Admah?
    How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
    My heart is turned over within Me,
    All My compassions are kindled.

    Ezek 18
    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
    31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
    32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11
     
    #38 BobRyan, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  19. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    That is because in all honesty they cannot answer such texts well, as it actually goes against their "theology". so they have to look for ways out...
     
    #39 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 3, 2018
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't 'admit' it; I state it of my own free will. :D But the sinner's free will will always be to reject Christ because.....wait for it.... they are sinners. As the tree, so the fruit.
    You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you say that no sinner can come to Christ; then you say that it is up to them. Please elucidate.
    I take it exactly as it is said. But the sinner will not be willing unless God makes him so. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.' The account of Cornelius shows wonderfully the monergistic power of God in salvation. He made Cornelius willing to send for Peter; He made Peter willing to come, and the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius.
     
    #40 Martin Marprelate, Mar 3, 2018
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