Featured Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

thisnumbersdisconnected


Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Even with stops and starts progress happens.If I told the boss I was going to pause for 15-20 years before I deliver the load...I would be fired for not doing the job. They would not ask me to rededicate myself to the job...they would reject me.
Then you said this statement;Dconn-

You make this statement without any support.....as you attempt to post authoritatively.....I figure..ok how is he going to demonstrate this statement. and what do I see''''

A condescending ,smug comment.
Did you think I would not notice this Dconn, or your silly comment that you have studied the bible alone and the Spirit has given you the "truth of the premill position':laugh:

.

So with your certain view that the premill is the truth......you make the comment that I am arrogant to suggest you have not read the letters to the churches....lol I am sure you have Dconn...but because of your position you narrow the letter down to rev 3:10 thinking it to be a rapture promise to the church in Philadelphia.
You skip over the other 6 churches that are partly commended, and partly condemned and warned.....so if you have understanding of what is being spoken to these churches....how do you make the statement that their is no statement of Jesus cutting off disobedient professors??? You said Fortunately God does not work this way...really?

You did not offer discussion did you? Just a condescending statement.

I am responding to what you offered Dconn...like my junior high football coach explained to me...you cannot make chicken salad...out of chicken droppings

You offered smugness...not dialog...read it. Many choose instead clear honest interaction...try it and maybe people will interact with you also.

We are each individual and how God made us. I do not view things as you suggest.

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I never said I did Dconn so you can keep your smug judgements to yourself.

The difference is I know I am limited unlike you......so I have sought out some of the best teachers , commentators, links, sermons, available and I use them which you, and DHK, and Winman, despise because the reveal the folly of your wrong ideas and false teachings...You cannot refute them anytime they are posted so you take out your frustration on me, because I offer the good links. I understand:wavey:

I am sure I lack many things Dconn...that is why I seek help from more knowledgeable and graceful brethren.....On BB when Reformed, or Archangel, or Biblicist, or Rippon, or Tom Butler, or Kyred, or Con1 or greek tim or Bosley, or greek tim and several others post...I pay attention. We do not always agree on all things...but we do not have to because I know they will offer scripture and support their ideas with scripture in context and as has been understood by the Church historically.

I think what you are doing with this statement is spoken of in your circles as projection;
. an unconscious defense mechanism by which a person attributes to someone else unacknowledged ideas, thoughts, feelings, and impulses that they cannot accept as their own.:wavey:

 

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

If you understand, explain how the Scriptures state that Christ is Lord of all without us having to make him Lord of our lives?

 

Over a year ago on a similar thread I posted acts 2;
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

I commented that Jesus is LORD period...we do not make Him anything...He is Lord...

When someone becomes saved they are to obey all lawful commands.

If we do that or not...does not change who Jesus is. He IS LORD....he is Lord over the unsaved also....but they remain in heart rebellion to Him as taught here...

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.


While we have many disagreements DHK....this is not one of them is it?

have you confused me with someone else? I have always believed and stated that Jesus is LORD.

If you mean something else...I am not following you , please clarify and I will expand on this answer.:thumbsup:

In Acts 10 in particular...I believe the specific phrase..He IS LORD OF ALL...is speaking of gentiles inclusion in the Covenant salvation of God as the rest of the narrative expands on
1 Cornelius house gentiles coming in

2 Peters vision of the sheet with the unclean animals [gentiles being cleansed]

3 Spirit poured out on gentiles with sign gifts accompanying
Earlier you posted this to JON C;

I agreed with this portion of your post.:thumbsup: In fact this is almost exactly what I wrote a year or two ago and have never varied on this.:thumbsup:

 

I don't believe in easy believism; I am non-Cal, but not an Arminian.
I don't believe in LS, and I am not a Calvinist.
And as you know I don't believe in denying the Scriptural account of 1Cor.3:1-5 of the teaching of Carnal Christians.

There you have it.
Christ is Lord of all. That in itself proves LS wrong. Why does one have to "make" him Lord, as the LS advocates assert, if he is already Lord? He is Lord whether we like it or not.
The question is: Will I submit to him as Lord? (He already is).
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ an thou shalt be saved." Paul said.
That is fairy simple. Paul did not say: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, obey all the command of Jesus in becoming a disciple and then you will become a Christian." That is LS, and it is erroneous. It is a new and novel doctrine brought into existence in just the past few years. Not even Calvin taught it.

 

Yes, it seems if Lordship Salvation were correct, that a period of probation following confession would follow before baptism, but we see folks being baptized immediately after confession.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

After Philip explained that the OT scriptures the Ethiopian eunuch had been reading referred to Christ, the eunuch believed on Jesus. Obviously Philip had also explained to him that he needed to be baptized, for the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Now, if true faith must be evidenced by good works, you would think that Philip would have told him, NO, we must know that your faith is real as evidenced by works before we can baptize you. And then some sort of probationary period would be set up, perhaps six months, or a year, and then if it was determined the new professor truly displayed real and genuine faith they would be allowed to be baptized.

But that is never the case is it? Believers were baptized on the spot. The Ethiopian eunuch simply confessed that he believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and he was allowed to be baptized.

This is important, because Philip demanded true faith before he would baptize the eunuch.

So, this idea that you have to prove your faith by works is not scriptural. We saw over 3000 folks on Pentacost alone who simply "received" Jesus and were immediately baptized.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

Has anyone here actually said that one has to obey all the commands of Jesus to be saved?

 

It has to do with the question: Can one be a believer without being a disciple? The LS advocates say: NO. All Christians must be disciples or they are not Christians at all.
Therefore all the commands concerning discipleship apply to the new believer (like forsake all that you have or you are not my disciple.)
The specific commands on discipleship are the commands of Jesus being referred to.

For an example of such a statement, read here:

That was posted by dconn here, on April 24,
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2105782&postcount=58

 

In the same thread John of Japan made a very good post concerning LS:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2104923&postcount=33

 

The title question of this thread asks the question: "Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?" After reading this thread from start to finish, I must ask how anyone can understand it.

The term "lordship salvation" is new to me and after reading this thread I still have know idea what it means. Could anyone recommend a readily accessible article that describes this position in clear terms and provides some supporting scripture? I would prefer a recommendation from someone that holds to this position. I would also like a recommendation for a similar article on the "free grace" position. Again, I would like the recommendation to be from someone that actually holds this view. I am not interested in books at this point. I am not investigating the validity of either position. I simply want to know what everyone is talking about.

 

I agree. It is the same thing that keeps many Arminians from being able to grasp Calvinism. I know because I was a Free Will Baptist preacher for many years. I had all the wrong presuppositions about Calvinism.

It is the same thing that keeps teetotalers from embracing the biblical position of moderation.

etc, etc, etc...

 

No, it doesn't. You are hung up, perhaps justifiably, on the phrase "MAKE HIM Lord."

I don't like that either. You are right that Jesus IS Lord. Nobody can make him Lord of anything because he already is Lord of EVERYTHING.

But salvation comes to those who believe that he is Lord. Salvation ONLY comes to those who believe that he is Lord. No one who does not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord is saved. the very thing that one must believe in order to be saved is that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Now, what the Bible repeatedly teaches is that believing that Jesus is Lord will affect your behavior. And the longer you truly believe it the more it will affect the way you live.

That's why faith without works is dead.

That's why drunkards, liars, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, etc... shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

That's why John can say that if a man continually practices willful sin then he has not been born of God.

 

What you say has nothing to do with Lordship Salvation, which is a new doctrine.
When I got saved I trusted "the Lord Jesus Christ." He was both Lord and Saviour at the time of my salvation. That was automatic and always has been.

Lordship salvation is a new doctrine which is simply a reaction against easy believism which most here have never embraced in the first place. Therefore it is a non-entity, and in many cases a doctrine that lies outside the boundaries of orthodox Christianity bordering on a works based salvation.

Lordship salvation, as defined by some, means that one must be disciple and believer at the time of salvation and therefore all commands of discipleship are applicable at the time of salvation. The command "Unless you forsake all and follow me, you cannot be my disciple," is therefore applicable to a new believer. Without its obedience one is not saved, according to LS. That makes it a works-based salvation.

 

True and if you look through the Bible, disciple and believer are used for the same people. believe = disciple. Perfect? no.

What hasn't been supplied here is that one that said "obey all the commands of Jesus to be saved." Nobody believes that we have to obey "all" to be saved. Nobody believes that you have to have any obedience in order to be saved. What is believed is that once a person is saved, they will obey. They will be a disciple. Will they be perfect? No and no one here is advocating that. That's the problem with the debate on LS. No one has advocated the above, but yet it gets repeated over and over again.

There is a big difference in having to obey in order to be saved and will obey because we are saved.

 

actually everything he said is what Lordship salvation is.

amen!

No one says that one has to obey in order to be saved. What is taught is that once we are saved, we are a new creature. We have a new nature. We believe (as you said above) that Jesus is Savior and Lord(Master). If we truly believe he is or Lord, then we are his disciple(follower, student). Will we be perfect? No. We are growing. 2 Corinthians 3:18 "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

We are being changed. We are growing. We are being more Christ like as we learn how to live. You don't obey to get saved. You don't obey to stay saved. You obey because you truly love the Lord.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

(1 John 2:1-6)

 

Luke 24 and Jbh28...very solid posts.....DHK in pos t 93 has much of it correct....but then twists the part on the role of works in our lives

 

Apostles, pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc., are all believers also, but the reverse is not true. Not all believers are apostles, pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc. God has given special trained individuals for the church (Eph. 4:11).
In the same manner not every believer is a disciple. That is why many churches have "discipleship classes."
In the Great Commission Jesus commanded: "Go and 'made disciples' in all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father..."
What did he mean by "make disciples"? Is it just a synonym for "lead to Christ"? No. That is a part of it. But after that they need to be discipled, taught, in order that they be brought to that next stage (baptism), and then discipled some more: "teaching them all things whatsoever I have taught you." The process of discipleship is a long one--perhaps never-ending.

It is also one of spiritual reproduction:
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
--A new believer is not a mature believer who can immediately teach others. Timothy had to be taught of Paul first, before he could teach others.

LS doesn't look for fruit afterward (the process of sanctification). It looks for it immediately. Logically, the conclusion would be that the thief on the cross would not be saved for their was no visible fruit to see in his life according to LS advocates.

 

Every believe in the Bible was a disciple. A disciple isn't an office like above, so not relevant.

EXACTLY!!!!! growth. Being taught. Exactly what I said in my previous post. No one teaches that anyone is perfect and doesn't need growth. We need to grow.

Agree.

Not at all. What you are saying is not LS. Not even close. I've in fact agreed with much of what you said here. First, the process of sanctification would show growth. It would show a person is a disciple. He's learning how to be more Christ like. Second, saying one couldn't be saved because he died and thus no visible fruit is completely wrong. No one says that one has to have fruit in order to be saved. No one says that.

I don't think your disagreement is with the doctrine it self. It's more of the straw man someone told you once.

 

Here is a quote from one of John MacArthur's followers about LS.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114
Obviously it is a works-based salvation if one analyzes it properly.
It is also an attack and a reaction to other evangelicals. Certainly there are some elements of easy believism out there, but that doesn't speak to the majority of evangelical Baptists, only one small segment of them. I know one school in particular that teaches this way.
He seems to broadbrush the rest of Christianity this way.

The truth is: Salvation is very simple. In opposition to what MacArthur says, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Cor.15:1-4). To gain eternal life one must trust "the Lord Jesus Christ, believe in his saving work." The requirement of being a disciple is not there.
Concerning salvation this entire paragraph:
It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven
is bogus.
It has nothing to do with becoming a believer in Christ; nothing to do with salvation. He teaches a works-based salvation.

 

Not at all. There wasn't one work mentioned that was required to be saved. Not one. Works are what we do after we are saved. Works are not to get saved to keep being saved. Nothing in this said otherwise.

There is a lot of it out there.

Being a disciple is the natural thing a believer will do. There is not such thing as a believer who isn't following Christ.

Again, name the work he said one must do to be saved or keep being saved. Name it. You said it twice on here, but I've yet to see where he said any work was required to be saved or keep being saved.