DHK,
God created you knowing full well that you would sin. Using your logic, God could not have created you, for God would not do anything or make anything that could then be misused.
Why not use grapejuice?
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Nov 26, 2004.
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Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thank-you for the Chemistry review--the statement, "alcohol is not leaven" still is true. I thought the leaven added to make wine is to speed up the process which already takes place naturally--going from sweet to bitter.
I seem to be having difficulty with the symbolism of the sweetness of the cup which grapejuice would symbolize and the bitterness of the cup which a wine would symbolize. Seems to me wine would be a better picture of the Lord's cup.
Also seems ridiculous that someone would try to maintain grapejuice before modern means of preservation made such a feat possible.
"Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess..." is not talking about grape juice.
Selah,
Bro. James -
interesting discussion
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Alcohol, as a rule is made from leaven. You cannot get away from that fact. It is a leavening process, a corrupting process. Basically, wine is nothing more than corrupted defiled grape juice. What an awful symbol to portay the Lord's blood--something the Saviour would never do in the Last Supper, not in the making of "new wine" or grape juice. Contest is everything.
I don't know what your problem is here. You sound either very condescending or very naive. I am not sure which. But the attitude bothers me.
Fermented wine makes one drunk. There is no great revelation in that. The problem you seem to have is reconciling the fact the "oinos" and "yayin" have two different meanings--fermented wine, or unfermendted wine (grape juice), both of which can only be determined by its context, not by your preconceived ideas. The people at the wedding of Cana did not get drunk on grape juice did they? The people taking the Lord's supper did not get drunk on grape juice did they. Please do a study on how the Hebrews partook of their paschal feast, the observance of the passover lamb, and see how many cups of "wine" they took. If it was wine as we consume it, every one of them would be drunk by the time the service would be over--no questions asked. It would be impossible for that "wine" to be fermented.
Must you force the English word wine to mean fermented wine to mean fermented wine just because it does today. It didn't mean that in the first centuty (all the time). Only some of the time. Consult a good lexicon. Read a good source on the subject. Alcohol is made from yeast which in the bible is yeast. It is a corrupting agent symbolizing sin. That one point alone throws all your arguments out of kilter.
DHK -
DHK -
"He made a perfect creation in which there was no sin. Our Creator at the wedding of Cana created grape juice from water."
DHK, that's not what the Bible says!
You keep pointing out that you know the Bible does at times refer to wine. But you seem to insist that you can chose wine to mean grape juice when you want it to.
And I'm not familiar with that book, "Biblical wines or the laws of fermentation." Is it a published book for a bound pamphlet from someone with your same presuppositions?
What about Kenneth Gentry's book? ;)
This seems to have rattled your cage a little. I promise you I'm not trying to ridicule you. But what I see here is a clear example of trying to force the Bible to say something which it does not say! And like I said before if we do this then how can we tell the liberals that they cannot do the same thing? -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"Fermenting and Fomenting"
If the corruptness of anything from a corrupt world is an issue, then nothing is suitable to commemorate the Lord's death until He comes.
Everything man creates including the juice of the grape is in a state of decay or corruption.
This issue becomes "legalistic" at some point. Shall we make the communion "transsubstantial", take the cup from the people, and make the whole matter beyond recognition? How about "consubstantial"?
Que lastima.
Bro. James -
DHK,
No. I'm suggesting that Jesus created wine because it is good.
And there goes another moderator throwing around the term "blasphemy" like so many peanut shells at a ball game. -
Can some Catholic please answer my original question. Why does the Roman catholic Church insist that the wine must be alcoholic. Why was the priest asking for a variance with the city instead of simply using grapejuice in the mass? What part does the alcohol play in the transubstantiation of the wine into blood? Do you all think that in the early church that every time the Lord's Supper was served the wine used was always alcoholic? Here is a quote that I found.
There are indications that the practice of pressing preserved grapes directly into the Lord’s Supper cup continued for centuries. For example, the third Council of Braga (A.D. 675) reports Cyprian’s charge against those "who presented no other wine [vinum] at the sacrament of the Lord’s cup but what they pressed out of the clusters of grapes." 17 It is noteworthy that fresh grape juice is called "wine" (vinum). The charge was not against the use of unfermented grape juice as such, but rather against the failure to mix the grape juice with water.
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Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"Sour Grapes"
The mystery of the Mass is more concerned with the "Latin words" spoken by a duly authorized "priest" who is "right with God".
Having been a Catholic, I can state that the above "mystery" is very confusing until one comes to the knowledge of its origin: the author of confusion.
Having been around vineyards, home-made wine and beer for several years--in the making and the drinking thereof, I would make the observation that alcohol is being produced as the ripening process comes to fullness--without human intervention. Some overripe fruit sure seems to exhibit the presence of alcohol.
At what percentage do we declare the grape----juice to be wine(alcoholic)?
Both substances would be considered "fruit of the vine". They both have leaven to some degree--one natural, the other man augmented. So much for the objection to leaven. Leaven is there--added or not.
There may be something "unkosher" about our fine points of worship; but then Jesus is not "kosher" either. He is high- priest forever--the order of Melchizadec.
He came unto His own--His own received Him not.
Selah,
Bro. James -
The altar wine must be of grapes pressed fermented to prevent despoiling through the corruption of the juice in to vinegar.
Sacramental wine was traditionally made by religious orders to ensure no additives entered by way of production. Grape juice can be used although it is said to be a grave offense in the RCC. The wine may not be more than 18% alcoholic, and it is used because Jesus used wine at the Last Supper.
Having pinched a taste of altar wine has a naughty school girl I can say it is a type of wine that would never be used outside of its intended purpose.
The strict rules were designed to prevent corruption and in consequence a mockery of the Sacrament. With the bizarre changes within the church anything goes, even the laity holding the communion wafer in unsanctified hands, drinking the sacremental wine and the tendency thereby to view the entire mystery as a meal rather than the partaking of the real presence of Our Lord.
Okay, folks starting shooting.... -
"The wine may not be more than 18% alcoholic"
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Wine never is. -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"This do in remembrance of Me"---
Has been turned into the vain practice of "kosher magicians".
Who authorized that?
"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men."
Selah,
Bro. -
DHK
Alcohol does not represent corruption in scripture. Alcohol is not yeast. I've read that Jews used wine at passover because yeast was forbidden. Fully formented wine had no sugar, and therefore yeast would not grow in it. The Jews had a method of getting the dead yeast out of the wine. There still is kosher Passover wine today. Now there is also kosher grape juice. But in Jesus' day, the deacon Welch's hadn't come up with the process for Welch's grape juice. -
If the man had some kind of container that would pump the wine out, that might take care of the open container law, but it wouldn't help with the public consumption of alcohol law.
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It is far easier in Biblical times to keep the unfermented grape juice in storage for long periods of time, then it was for fermented grape juice. When I get more information gathered on that topic I will post it for you. There already has been one link posted that refers to that subject.
DHK -
It is not blasphemy.
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DHK -
I'll have to bow out and agree to disagree with you on this one, since previous posts already support my post, and I would simply be repeating what others said already.
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