Hello Me4Him.
Because God said you are to love Him with your whole being not part of it.
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. What's left? But what has a command to us got to do with how God deals with Esau?
Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
What's it say? Hate your parents like I hate Esau? Of course most of us will love our parents but if they stand in your way of obeying Christ then love for them fails because we must obey Christ or love fails. Love never fails.
I'll consider it when Hell freezes over or a worthy opponent gets me back against the ropes. Are you willing to admit to context in scripture? :cool: HaHa!
It amounts to hate when you do not love. Love is to do good for another and to honour your mother and father is the command, obeying God brings them more honour than any obedience towards them ever can if that means neglecting God.
Going the extra mile is called for but not against scripture. If a thing is wrong then we are not to obey our mother or father. Love is obedience and if we are called not to be obedient to our parents then that is hate towards them. You cannot serve two masters.
God is Sovereign. He is not under the law given to us. You equate 'hate your parents' with the way God hates Esau. Why? Did God have to decide between the two? Why did God have to decide between the two? What does the scripture say? in order that God's purpose in election might stand That's why isn't it? What did He have to decide? What conflict of interest could there have been because He chose them before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad So what conflict of interest was there? None. Was God put into the position of obeying His God or obeying His Parents? :cool: What are you talking about? :cool:
Our hate, which God calls for, carries no wrath with it but many prayers I should imagine, are you saying God's hate carries no wrath with it? In your dreams.
I see no reason why you will not answer a question Sorry, all you've given is "your opinion", no scripture. Man? I thought we were to explain our beliefs so others can understand what we say and come to Christ by them. If you are right then you are withholding life from us. Our blood will be on your head if you are right. Ha!Ha! 'if' :cool:
john.
Why would God say: "I Have Hated Esau..."?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ben W, Jan 13, 2006.
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Is it possible for a "researcher" to start out believing one thing and finish believing the opposite??
Most "Christians" prefer to let someone else do the "research" and tell them what to believe, rather than doing the research themselves,
People like to "picks out" what they want to believe, Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, whatever, and their "Choice" blinds them to any doctine that contradicts their doctrine,
Their "Faith" is placed in man's book/opinions written about the Bible rather than a "Relationship" with God through the "Spirit" as they read/study "God's word". (bible)
There's no "HONEST", "UNBIAS", "HUMBLE" seeking of the "TRUTH", regardless of where it may lead.
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Just as you are "FREE" to "CHOSE" which "Denomination" you want to attend,
you're also "FREE" to "CHOSE" which "Doctrine" you want to "believe",
and also "FREE" to "CHOSE" to believe in "God" or be an Atheist.
And for all the above "CHOICES", YOU will be held accountable, not God.
But calvinist denies YOU have these "CHOICES", Do you agree??? -
BTW, the few books and articles I have read on calvinism came after I began to see it in scripture. Yes, they helped. But I knew that the opinion I previously held (similar to yours) was corrupt and couldn't be reconciled to very basic, direct biblical statements.
His justice and righteousness would not be displayed if that were the case.
This is very consistent with Romans 1 and 2. All men are responsible to repent and are given enough reason within their conscience and nature to seek Him if they just would... but in their fallen, "dead" sin nature- they WILL not.
If it had been God's active will to prevent man from sinning... man wouldn't have sinned. Now that man has sinned and "died" spiritually, it takes a direct, divine miracle to resurrect him. I believe that each salvation isn't just a choice or a decision or a mundane matter of fact occurrence. I believe each and every salvation is a resurrection no less miraculous nor within man's ability to cause than physical resurrection.
Besides that, each and every person that God will judge consciously chooses the way of Adam. Their nature is to sin but they do it willingly.
All you do is evade direct questions and "challenge" me with more questions of your own.
As per the mote and beam... perhaps you should be hard on yourself first. Answer the hard questions. Deal with the scriptures that directly contradict what you claim. Then "challenge" me.
Adam sinned as our representative and personally.
Each of his descendents was born with a dead, sin nature that wills to rebel, predisposed to self-worship, and enemies of God. Carnal men, like any other creature, behave according to their nature. They don't "will" to change that nature... and that nature is evil.
God before time began foresaw this and allowed it that His glory might be displayed.
He sent Christ to die for sin. His sacrifice as an infinite person is fully sufficient not only for the sins that will be committed but any sin that might have been committed. However it is only "efficient" for the elect... and God knew who they were and predestined them to regeneration.
According to His good pleasure, God spiritually resurrects or regenerates those who He has divinely chosen so that His plan might be accomplished. He changes their nature and everything else precipitates from that miracle. No man deserves it. All are guilty. He has done no injustice to those who have willfully chosen rebellion and to whom He has graciously offered forgiveness... but they will not.
Before you cry "unjust" or "unfair" consider Christ. Did He heal every person? Did He raise every dead person? Did He walk on the water in front of everyone? Did He equally preach and teach the gospel to everyone? The obvious answer to each question is "no". He did specifically that which would bring ultimate glory to God. He did not force the Jews to reject and kill Him. But it facilitated the plan. Those men were guilty... and their guilt judged by God Himself will bring glory to God for being a righteous, holy judge. -
BTW, ME, you still haven't given direct answers to the questions I posed. Why? What are you so afraid of?
You have accused me of not being Spirit led on this and of taking my beliefs from the opinions of other men rather than scripture. Yet you won't answer these questions that might lead you to a real evaluation of what you have swallowed. -
Talk about an idiom for Homer!!
Calvinism
proves itsself wrong by the very scriptures it tries to prove itsself "right" :rolleyes:
"Cart before the horse" syndrome due to the inability to reason because of respect of men and their logic. -
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us... and that gift of grace by God was just as real in eternity past as it is right now. -
I am not ashamed I have the greatest respect for Calvin and the other reformers. My teachers are my brothers and are dear to me. How would you like it if I called your mum or dad or brother or sister? Not that I hold it against you but it is just not fitting that a Christian should call men while at the same time saying they are obeying the command to love all men because that would be hypocrisy on show isn't it?
john. -
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us... and that gift of grace by God was just as real in eternity past as it is right now. </font>[/QUOTE]oH, NO, FRIEND,AS FAR AS ETERNITY GOES, I WASN'T HOLY BEFORE I WAS MADE HOLY. I was a sinner before i was made righteous by the Divine act of the Soveriegn God by and through His Precious Son who imputed righteousness to me when I cried out for His mercy as that sinner.
God doesn't impute sin, but to believe Calvinism, one would have to attribute God with doing so for all the un-elect.
You greatly err, friend, greatly err. -
It maybe that you should re-read, "But Esau I have hated"? The statement, the inspired statement, says that to "have hated" there had to be a "I once loved" Esau, and because of Esau's choice to sell his birthright to Jacob, which was the subplanter from his birth, was a very wicked thing for him to do. God is angry with the wicked. God was angry with Esau. God is no longer angry and hates Esau. The verb is past perfect.
You would have an arguement if the Bible said "Esau have I hated and will still hate him" or, "I hate Esau", but it DOESN'T! -
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Hello Salamander.
Why don't you read the bible? If God doesn't imput sin then scripture errs not us because scripture says we die because Adam took what did not belong to him, choice. :cool:
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Try another line that one has no hook.
ISA 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
MAL 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, `How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'
john. -
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So? Now that you've made your best "arguement", and since all Ishmaelites are the Arab nations predominately muslim, are you trying to say that no muslims can be saved? I do understand the land of Edom is a wastelend, "and Edom have I utterly destroyed", but don't you belive there are still the descendents of Esau, spiritually, that sell their birthrights for satisfaction of the flesh? Yes, daily.
You're arguing from only a physical standpoint with no regard for the spiritual aspect, even though your physical arguement has many holes in it.
My God is not preselective, but He has predestinated all men to be conformed to the image of His Son, but by choice leaning towards his flesh, and diametrically opposed to the Spirit, God does allow men created in His image to make a conscience choice in how he responds to the call of election/ salvation. (You cannot differentiate the two without making them opposed one to the other, that is heresy!)
Election and Salvation are synonomous.
Can you consciously deny or approve of anything, namedly the discussion, beyond a conscious choice? NO! Unless you're operating in an unconscious state.
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Let me get this right JohnP we are to hate our parents?! It doesn't mean love less or put God first in our hearts, but tells us we are too hate, lack of love, our parents?
JohnP I will say this... you are the first honest calvinist I have met. YOu conclude that we are to hate our parents, that God is the cause for sin and that we are all robots. That is the honest ultimate conclusion for calvinism. YOu are a great example. This is were all calvinism would lead. I commend you.... however that does not mean I agree with you.
And Scott you agree with this man?!
JohnP you might want to consider Matt 10:37 here God says he who loves mother or father, son or daugher more then me.....
Now what is God saying we are to love HIm and HATE others or we are to put him first and love Him the most? It is clear that God loved Esua less, rather you believe it or not. -
Hello Tim.
I'm in the process of answering the lizard at the mo but I don't think he will mind being destroyed at a later date. :cool:
What can I do for you Timmy tool man?
Do you?
First honest post I've seen from the otherside. Where's the barb? :cool: It is uncomfortable being taken out of me groove? :cool: Good move. I give you more room from now on.
john. -
Night night America God bless you.
john. -
Thank you John for your answers. Great teaching material! You are either the most holiest man alive or the dumbest. YOu are on your own island. MOst born again christians (non-calvinist) have not fallen for such bad doctrine and theology. Let alone your fellow calvin followers.
The only question you did not answer was why God says to love Him more then others (parents sisters etc in Matt) But then says to hate them in Luke. Maybe you ought to take in the whole council of God's word.
As for this statement:
" But I would rather spend eternity with him than you"
"Apart from the grammar I would say that a Calvinist that does not accept the Sovereignty of God is a shallow man but it is God that makes shallow men as He made you shallower. Honest ok? (I like yer post it's cool. )
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I thank you. I would that a person with your stance hate me. I would want not one bit of association with a man who is so proud of his error and waddles in it. You are not ignorant. You have been shown the truth, and you have rejected it for a sinful, lunatic god. So again I thank you completely!
You need not worry I doubt I will be in YOUR heaven, too hot for me!
OH yeah! :cool:
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Hello Timtoolman.
As to what Calvinists believe or don't believe or most Christians believe or do not believe is not relevant to anything is it? Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?
That you say my God is nothing more than Satan with more power is a good one. My faith is the faith of the Reformers and Puritans, what's your heritage? Were your founding fathers Satanic since we are of the same faith? I am a Child of God a chosen man and Royal Priest about His God's business.
That's the difference with us. I make the effort of answering all points do I not? How often do we see the same courtesy.
Your teaching is unscriptural and leads many to Hell why should I hate you? But if it is hate you recognise then that is because you have the these feelings for those that hold to the true doctrines that you do not like. ...you assinate the character of God... No but would you like to assassinate me? I do get the impression.
If I say I would rather spend eternity with him than you I went a little too far. We will be perfect then but as for now one is guaranteed at least the politenss of a reply to a question.
You are trying to kid me into believing that Esau I hated is meant to express love? MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'
Does that say what it says? A wicked people always under wrath because Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
john.
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