Women’s positions in the church poll

Yea right it is hard to interpret! This reminds me of date rape. We all understand it. Two people on a date and things get a little romantic. They both go a little further then they should and then she says stop. He interprets this as really meaning go ahead I just cannot tell you to do it. So he forces the issue and we have date rape. Maybe we need a book like the JW's to interpret since we are not sure when no means no. What do you think? :laugh:

 

Wow, what a comparison.

Just curious, free, have you ever had a course in exegesis or done any theological work? Because it's clear that things were quite a bit different in the first century than they are today. Do you force women to pray with their heads covered? Because that's in the Bible, too, and that seems pretty straightforward.

The Bible doesn't change, but to understand what it is saying to us, we have to take everything, including historical context into account. Paul is saying something specific to a specific group of people at a specific time, telling the uneducated women who were basically considered property to listen to their husbands. This is an issue of trajectory, of accommodation and the greater good of the Kingdom. It is not an overarching theme.

 

And why are you curious? What does a yes answer or a no answer prove?

 

I take this to mean Paul did not let women be pastors or teach men in the church, or exercise authority over them, such as church discipline. Women do not qualify as pastors because they are not the husband of one wife. Fine.

It doesn't say anything about letting women participate on a committee or direct the singing. Some want to split hairs and make the "be in silence" part mean that women cannot do anything except under a man's direct authority or with his permission. This does not make sense, because in other parts of Paul's writings women distinctly DO teach and DO participate in church. Timothy's mother and grandmother TAUGHT him, at least at home. Other women prophecied in the church, so they were not keeping silent completely.

By the way, for all the things women aren't supposed to do at church, I've never heard of anyone complain if she wants to participate by giving money to the church. Yet some of you seem to think it's not okay for a woman to have a say in how that money is spent (by being on a committee.)

 

A yes would indicate some independent thinking.

 

I think that by your definition most of the writers of the scriptures as well as the Lord would be in trouble. I assume that you are one of the educated?

 

Are you willing to actually apply it literally?

IOWS.. NO woman can say ANYTHING In church.

 

No Tim

A literal interpretation, would mean that in positions of teaching men or having authority over men in Church, that women should not say anything.

The words in this verse, are not my words; They are not even Paul’s words; The are God’s Words!

 

It's harder to interpret the Bible than to write what God tells you.

 

OK, let's look at this passage...

1 Timothy 2:12
(12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Now, let's look at it in context...
Please show me where this only applies to a church service.

YOU said that "A literal interpretation, would mean that in positions of teaching men or having authority over men in Church, that women should not say anything." (bolded emphasis mine)...

Please show me in the verses before this where Paul was speaking about conduct in a church service only.

As a matter of fact, according to verse 8 it says, 1 Timothy 2:8
(8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. NOT JUST CHURCH!.. then goes on and says... "In like manner also, that women"

So, if you were to really take this verse literally, women would NEVER be able to teach anyone, even here on this board... BTW, where in the verse does it say women can't teach men? IT says they can't teach!...

Now, let's just define what the words mean...

Teach: The Greek word in this passage from Thayers:
διδάσκω
didaskō
Thayer Definition:
1) to teach
1a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
1b) to be a teacher
1c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one’s self as a teacher
2) to teach one
2a) to impart instruction
2b) instill doctrine into one
2c) the thing taught or enjoined
2d) to explain or expound a thing
2f) to teach one something

Wow, to take this literally means that women must never impart knowledge.. not only to men, but to anyone... but of course, we know from other parts in the Bible, this can't be what Paul is saying, because Philip's daughters prophesied.. (still waiting for someone to explain that away, BTW)

Now.. look at the words "Usurp Authority" BTW, "Usurp" alone is not in the Greek, but is combined with the word "Authority" to translate Paul's meaning here...

G831
αὐθεντέω
authenteō
Thayer Definition:
1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker)

Notice that this is not just someone who leads, but some one that TAKES the authority.. as in mutiny...


So, if this is not talking about a church service.. (provide proof that it is)..
And it is not talking about teaching men only (again provide proof)
then it is talking about not allowing a woman to be a know-it-all, authoritarian figure inside and outside of a church setting..

Which makes since with the verses following this.. .

No one likes a know-it-all bossy woman!... Even God!
LOL

 

Here you go Tim........
V.12, in context..... 1 Timothy 2:9-15
--------------------------------------------------
9A "In like manner also,"

-A CALL FOR COMMITMENT....FOR CHRISTIAN WOMEN-
i.e. (Just as had been called for with men
In the previous verse:
-------------
V.8 ❝Genuine holiness & single mindedness❞:
--------------------------------------------------
9B "that women adorn themselves in modest apparel,"

-GOD’S ONLY INSTRUCTION....REGARDING A DRESS CODE-
i.e. (To dress appropriately
Having nothing to do with wearing dresses:
----
Dressing as a Christian should dress.
I.e. Not wanting to tempt men to sin!

--------------------------------------------------
9C "with shamefacedness and sobriety;"

-THE TWO GOALS..........THAT CHRISTIAN WOMEN SHOULD HAVE WHEN DRESSING-
i.e. (That would please the LORD
--------
“shamefacedness and sobriety” Lit.(Bashfulness & self-control)

--------------------------------------------------
9D "not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

-THE ERROR OF HAVING THE WRONG ATTITUDE.....ABOUT BEAUTY-
i.e. (Seeing it as mainly outward
---
Seeing ❝outward beauty❞ as most important!

--------------------------------------------------
10 "But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

-THE RIGHT ATTITUDE.....WHEN IT COMES TO BEAUTY-
i.e. (What God thinks is really beautiful
--------
Notice: The 4 main words in V.10
“But with good works”
--------
The Lord thinks...Godliness is beautiful!

--------------------------------------------------
11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."

-THE ❝GENERAL RULE❞.....FOR WOMEN IN CHURCH-
I.e. (To remain silent
-----
Note: This is a general rule:
Because it depends upon the circumstances!
------
Women speak during SS & on Wednesday:
Because it isn’t (1)disruptive nor (2)causes confusion!

--------------------------------------------------
12A "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,"

-GOD’S PURPOSE......FOR THIS GENERAL RULE-
i.e. (So that they don’t lift themselves up
-----
Because of the place that God has given women:
------
God will never call a woman to ❝teach men in Church❞!

--------------------------------------------------
12B "but to be in silence. "

-THE DIFFERENT LEVELS......OF THIS SILENCE-
i.e. (Depending upon the circumstances
-----
The Holy Spirit guides & the pastor enforces:
To maintain order within the Church!
----
Note: God blessed when Priscilla helped teach Apollos:
Because it wasn’t during an open Church service!

--------------------------------------------------
13 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve."

-ONE REASON....GOD PLACES THIS RULE ON WOMEN-
i.e. (Because of the order of creation
---
God has place men over women:
So it would be unnatural for them to teach men!

--------------------------------------------------
14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. "

-THE BIBLE’S FIRST EXAMPLE....OF BREAKING THIS RULE-
i.e. (When Eve taught Adam about knowledge
--
Eve being weaker...was more easily deceived!

--------------------------------------------------
15A "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,"

-THE GRAND PURPOSE.....GOD HAS FOR WOMEN-
i.e. (Having children
“Saved” Lit.(Made whole)
----------------
A purpose...that the world looks down upon!
--------------------------------------------------
-GOD’S PLAN.......FOR EACH MEMBER IN THE FAMILY-
(1) Men to lead and be the provider:
(2) Women to submit & care for the home:
(3) And children to obey their parents!

--------------------------------------------------
15B "if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

-GOD’S PLAN....FOR A MOTHERS CONTINUED HAPPINESS-
i.e. (When she raises her kids right
--------------------------------------------------
A woman experiences great fulfilment:
When she has done a good job with her kids!

 

You're right that the Bible clearly teaches that women should not hold leadership positions in the church but I find your "there goes your argument!" statement a bit snotty and inflammatory.

Just make your case. You certainly have one. Stop hitting below the belt with smart alec statements.

 

I appreciate the analysis. One thing however, "modest" in this context does not refer to "don't dress provocatively" but instead means "don't dress to draw attention to yourself". Of course, if one dresses modestly in the second sense, then it is unlikely that they will end up dressing immodestly in the first sense. However, the issue of temptation to men is not the thrust of this passage but instead one of vanity and self-seeking as expressed in one's dress.

Just wanted to point that out.

 

Thank you Stilllearning, that was impressive, and a lot of good stuff there.. but you have still failed to show where this passage was speaking of a "church service". That little fact would be quite helpful.