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Would you stay? 4

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 7, 2018.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Thinkingstuff said: Based on your questions it seems you want to jump topics once again!

    The topic has been salvation ever since I asked the question about......wait for it....Salvation.

    Thinkingstuff said: Your initial question was a simple one. "Can a Catholic tell me how to be saved" I answered that question directly and simply. "Yes believe on the Lord Jesus and do what he says."

    Thinkingstuff said: You then say "that is not good enough" Totally, disregarding whether the statement was true or not, or even valid.

    Correct, the statement is found very lacking and actually is either a dodge or just simply you do not know the answer. How could it be "good enough"? Example, I read this from Jesus, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" Thus, from what read Jesus says to do, millions would have to be cutting off their hands and feet if they want to be saved, unless you are able to expound what the RCC (Phillip) considers "doing what Jesus says to do". Which is what I have been asking you to do, but you don't seem to know how to defend your answer. Now this is odd, since I have had Catholics point to the Ethiopian and Phillip exchange as proof the RCC is needed to explain anything Jesus said.

    Thinkingstuff said: That makes me believe you don't really want the Catholic answer .

    Really? I have been asking for the Catholic answer! I am representing the poor soul Ethiopian and you can't help me understand what I am reading! You just say "do what Jesus said to do". If I do that without the Catholic Church's guidance I will be chopping off my hands and feet! Because I do want life!

    Thinkingstuff said: I responded that what Jesus said was pretty clear and didn't need any explanation but then asked what you thought he meant.

    Is that what Phillip told the Ethiopian? 'Well it's pretty clear isn't it, what do you think it says'. 'Just eat His flesh and drink His blood, what is so difficult to understand?! '

    Thinkingstuff said: Now you are bringing up another topic by saying "I only have the scripture I need a Catholic to tell me."

    Lol. Another topic? This whole exchange is on the sole topic of how do Catholics answer the question of "what must i do to be saved?" Catholics say the Scripture is not sufficient for one to understand doctrine. So yes I do need the Catholic answers.

    Thinkingstuff said: Ok. Using only scripture (which Catholics also use) explain to me what Jesus said. I gave you also scripture reference passages to help you. See, I don't think you really want to know.

    This is classic! Catholics point to the Ethiopian and Phillip example as to why the RCC is necessary for understanding doctrines and you as a Catholic are telling me, representing the poor lost soul seeking salvation, to explain Scripture to you, or else he really doesn't want to know. It's not about me trying to get saved here. This is about the Catholic answer to the question to the lost soul who says, "what must I do to be saved?".

    Thinkingstuff said: That is not productive. Ask the real questions you want to really address. Speak directly.

    Lol. I am exactly where you have led us. All of my questions have been on the topic of salvation. You presented a partial list of things you said that Jesus said one must do to be saved. One was eat His flesh and drink His blood. The Ethiopian needs the Catholic understanding. How can he eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood? Does He need to find Jesus, kill Him, and eat and drink? The floor is yours, these are your replies, explain them Phillip!

    As we can see, this dialogue has produced light on just how everyday Catholics respond to the basic question of salvation. We have at least three Catholics responding on here and the answers to this question are all over the map. Everything from living homeless, to just love people, to eating Jesus' flesh and drinking His blood. Yet they insist Christians need to seek the RCC where doctrine is spoken of in one voice!
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Church of Rome denies Pauline justification, so they cannot really say how to get saved, but instead how to stay lost!
     
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    We have made it this far:

    The Question: What is the Catholic response to "what must I do to be saved?"

    The Catholic Answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and do what he says."

    Partial list have been given from Catholics, everything from living homeless, to just love people, to eating Jesus' flesh and drinking His blood. Yet they insist Christians need to seek the RCC where doctrine is spoken of in one voice!
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I certainly know what Catholics think regarding Salvation. You asked me what one must do to be save. The answer is ever simple Believe on the Lord Jesus and do what he says. You said that wasn't enough and to provide you a list. I then asked you what your list is and you said one thing faith in Jesus. Period. How is that any more clear than what I said. If my answer is insufficient then certainly yours is. I think what you really want to do is debate on the Catholic view of Justification, how it applies to salvation, then bring up the sacraments and argue that and how the Catholic views Grace. So then Just ask those questions. I will be glad to answer those questions. But see what you are doing is trying to get me to mention something then pounce on the attack accusing me of Pelagianism and other such accusations. That way you can be on the offensive and make me argue from an emotion perspective. Just say what you think which is you believe Catholics hold doctrines you disagree with and then mention how you disagree with it. But if you ask a general question it seems to me to answer generally.
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Yeshua1 this is what I'm getting Steaver to do just say what it is you want to discuss. Your question is good because you are stating that Roman Catholics denies Pauline Justification. I would of course disagree with you and state that you have either an inadequate view of Pauline Justification or an inadequate view of the Catholic view of Justification. But if you want I can explain to you the Catholic view of Justification. Are you interested?
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    So, Yeshua1 I will here explain the Catholic view of Justification and so you are clear that I'm not stating my own opinion, I will use Catholic documents. "
    1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:" (CCC) You may ask how is justification or the righteousness of God is communicated through faith and baptism?" It is really a simple answer. God deals with us through covenants. Covenants often has an aspect whereby engages them through our actions. Such as circumcision in the Abrahamic covenant. You then ask is this scriptural. I would say certainly. Jesus (or Yeshua) says to Nicodemus " “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." Water being baptism. Baptism is the incorporation of the New Covenant. I have heard the argument that water means amniotic fluid. But I think that argument fails in that the Greek word for water in this case has never been used to describe that. Water means that Water. Water which you are baptized in. Also, note 1 Peter 3:20-21 "who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

    Further we view Justification as more than just one thing which I believe in your thinking (and I can be wrong about what you think) is merely a legal proclamation. Catholics believe that is certainly one aspect of Justification but it doesn't end there "The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion,...Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin...Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ...
    Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God...
    Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom."
    (CCC) Therefore, if I were to break it down simply, not only does Jesus Christ's Justifying work coverts us to having faith in him but actively transform us into his image daily as we actively follow his will using our freedom as it was intended rather than abusing it which results in sin. Some Baptist hold to reformed theology and I think they would have a problem with the idea of freedom of will to act rightly. But I don't know if you are such a one. Maybe you hold a more Armenianist point of view.
     
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Luckily Jesus gave us Commandments.

    Love God, Love Neighbor.



    Luke 10

    25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

    Who is going to tell me what Jesus says wasn't enough?
     
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    A attended a Roman Catholic a few years ago. The priest stated that Betty is in Heaven
    because she had been baptized. :Frown
     
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I asked you the Catholic answer to the question "what must I do to be saved?" Your Catholic answer has led us to a list you gave...which you said was a partial list.

    All of these must be understood through Catholic interpretation, correct? Could you explain each one as it applies to the question any lost soul might ask of you, "what I must do to be saved? " Let's just pick one, Jn 6:53, for the lost soul who wants to be saved, explain to him how he is to do what Jesus said to do here in order to be saved.

    Act 8:30
    And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
    Act 8:31
    And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
     
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Have you sold everything yet and are living homeless? Or don't we have to obey this one to be saved?

    Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
    Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
    Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
    Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
    Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
     
  11. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    It's not about what Jesus said as "being enough to save us", ie, obeying a list of Commands. It's the fact that Jesus HIMSELF is enough to save us!
     
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Allow me to give you as complete an answer as possible, and if you need more clarity with any answer I give, please continue to ask questions until you feel satisfied the question has been fully answered.

    Here is the question under review: If a lost soul would ask you, "what must I do to be saved?", what would your answer be?

    My answer would be: Believe the testimony God gave of His Son Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ died for your sins, laying down His life on a Roman cross, shedding His blood for the sins of the whole world, that God raised Him again to life on the third day. Believe this with your heart and confess this is truth with thy mouth and ye shall be saved.

    Now you, representing the lost soul which asked the question, may ask followup questions if you do not find the answer is sufficient for your salvation.
     
    #12 steaver, Sep 12, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Is that Love God and Love Neighbor? Piece of Cake!
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    It's about what Jesus said! Folks want to deceive others into believing what they teach ABOUT Jesus is more important than what Jesus teaches is important.

    What Jesus taught is perfect and to be followed.

    Follow what Jesus teaches.

    "YOU ARE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE" ---THINGS Jesus never taught, never mentioned, never said.

    People want undermine the command of Jesus.



    There is this thing called LOYALTY. Jesus could say his command will doom one to hell, WE ARE STILL GOING TO DO IT. We hang on his word alone.

    When your first reaction to the COMMAND OF GOD is look for a loophole or other way, you have instantly BROKE THE FAITH, you are fallen.


    There is no way you are going to convince me to 2nd guess Jesus and then prioritize your made up fake doctrine that Jesus Christ has never even spoke himself.
     
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Luke 7:50
    Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
     
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I don't know, Adonia said that homelessness is necessary for salvation? Thinkingstuff said doing what Jesus said to do is necessary for salvation. Seems you Catholics cannot get together on just what one must do to be saved.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Name one who disagrees with Love God and Love Neighbor. You think loving God and doing what Jesus says are two different things?

    Tell any of the Catholics here that Love God and Love Neighbor is not necessary for Salvation. They'll just laugh at you.


    We got it together brother. 1.2 billion together.

    Sola Scripturist can't stand each other, which is why you got thousands of denominations.

    Your Westboro baptist church the Jehovah Witness? all swear by scripture.

    You a Calvinist? least you would be if you follow your own rules logically since you can't do anything ergo must have God to elect and provide saving faith.
     
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Your idea of justification is akin to a judge telling a mass murderer he can be free if he walks a little old lady across the street.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Tell any of your Catholic friends here that hearing the gospel message that Jesus is the Christ, is the Son of God, and rejecting this message is not necessary for salvation and see if they will just laugh at you! You are proof here that Catholics do not agree on salvation.
     
  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I actually believe your position best represents the Catholic pov....No need to believe on Jesus Christ, just love God your own way and do some good deeds. Other Catholics here are dancing around this, but I bet they agree with you. Let's ask them! All Catholics here, do you agree with Utilyan that a person can reject Jesus is the Son of God and still be saved by their love for God and others?
     
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