Stop it! Now you’re turning into Rippon:Wink
". . .you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Dec 8, 2017.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Actually I am only doing it because he told me my spelling was wrong when it was he that couldn't spell the word he thought was wrong. :D:D:D:D:D
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If a man chooses Christ, how is that a "work"? Or how can that man glory in that he chose God? Calvinists ASSUME that because some believe that we have the choice to choose God then we have something to glory on. That is not true. Salvation is ALL of God whether you are a Calvinist or not. Perspective is everything.
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While I can neither take up camp in either the C or A tribes I see no problem for Arminians with this passage.
Simple -
"but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep"
Because they chose not to be among His sheep.
HankD -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOne of these statements in in the Bible, the other isn't:
1. "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."
2. "but you are not among my sheep because you do not believe."
If people choose not to be among Christ's sheep then ipso facto they have not believed in Him and Statement 2 is true of them.
If God has chosen certain people from eternity past to be His sheep through faith, then statement 1 is true of those who do not believe. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWhy should Someone who has not been chosen even care about any of this? Nobody I’m pretty certain ever asked to be born, asked to be selected, to move away from sin...so the question is why go through the bother in the 1st place... nobody asked God to save them in the 1st place.
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Just a quick note of John 10:26, you do not believe because you are not "among" my sheep. So reads the OP. But flip open your bibles, the verse reads you are not "of my sheep." Some of humankind are "of My sheep" and some are not. A person open to the gospel, thus not soil #1, and willing to accept God and His Word, is "of My Sheep." They are not yet His sheep, but they might become His sheep. When Jesus said the fields are white for harvest, He was referring to people who were "of My sheep." Once again we find the Calvinist leaning translations corrupting the text, NIV, ESV, and NLT. Once again, I point to the NASB, NKJV, LEB and CSB as being faithful to the text rather than agenda driven.
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Yes, we were chosen before the foundation of the world, but we were called and saved in time. We weren't saved from eternity past, as one poster has twisted my OP to suggest.
That same poster clearly defined a gospel that is false, as his belief system. He stated:
First, regardless of your statement, you are in a camp. You are only fooling yourself with this statement.
Second, do sheep chose their shepherd? Is that how it works?
The passage clearly explains why some people follow Christ and some don't, just like the parable of the Sower.
"You do not believe." And, why don't they believe? Because they are not His sheep. If they were His sheep, they would believe. -
Because "choose" is a verb, an action verb, something you DO.
Because he chose God.
If you choose God you have something to glory in. If God chose you, you have nothing to glory in.
Of course it is.
Either you chose God or God chose you. Only ONE is all of God. -
Shouldn't it be a backward 2nd grader?
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May I ask, why is it that you are a Christian but someone else, say, your neighbor, is not? Why did you "choose" God but he did not? Where you smarter, for example?
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It's were, not where. ;-)
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You employ the logic of men beyond its limits.
HankD -
Wrong, I denounce the abuse of the works of both John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
As the brazen serpent was eventually worshiped by the Israelites, the works of these men come close to being worshiped and have caused one of the greatest rifts in Trinitarian Christianity.
Addendum: After re-reading this post I want to modify something above : I denounce the abuse of the works of John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius.
HankD -
Hank, what about those of us who came to the position of Particular Redemption, not by reading the works of John Calvin, Augustine of Hippo, John Gill, or any of the historic or contemporary "Calvinists?"
I came to my position on soteriology by doing a critical study of the bible. (One of the reasons I eschew the term "Calvinist." If anything, I am a "Biblicist.")
Most of my friends and colleagues in ministry are (again, there doesn't seem to be a word all or even most will accept to describe the "in between" theology of those who claim to be neither Calvinist nor Arminian - but I stand by my assertion that those "in betweenites" are, in fact, Semi-Pelagian - their innate faith got the ball rolling and God took over and did the rest), in their words, "neither."
We just don't make it an issue. As far as I am concerned the issue is that we are in Christ, not how we got there. One does not have to be a theologian or a bible scholar in order to be saved.
But it seems to me that when we begin to honestly examine ourselves we will come to the conclusion there is nothing about us worthy of salvation (1 Timothy 1:15) and that as we continue to examine ourselves we must look closely at the origin of that faith we did not have, but now do have. Where did that faith come from and why did it not exist all the other times I heard the Gospel and did not respond?
The oft asked question, "Why did you get saved when you heard the Gospel preached and the guy sitting next to you didn't" has never been satisfactorily answered. To me, the only reasonable answer is "God took my old, cold, dead heart of unbelieving stone and replaced it with a warm, loving, believing heart of flesh."
With man, fallen man, faith is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
So, with all that said, I get my understanding of soteriology from the bible, not from reading the commentaries. I started this journey in the bible, and I completed the journey in the bible. :) -
I admire your position and others who know how to use labels when they are needed.
To help and not to denigrate (although sarcasm can be an effective teaching tool).
Myself? well my testimony certainly would not give credence to anything but grace alone.
I was saved from atheism and unrestraint in thought and deed - although being in the military at the time just before my salvation
I could not live the life style I wanted.
My awakening came from reading the scriptures. Where did that desire come from in the first place? Don't know, the Holy Spirit I assume.
But i DID resist, for a long time.
Somewhere in my resisting apparently something happened - one doesn't resist something/someone one doesn't believe exists.
IMO, the thrashing around in social media boards such as the BB trying to resolve this "tension" between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is a colossal waste of time and energy. The only saving grace is that folks are driven to the scriptures.
I truly cannot claim allegiance to any "camp" concerning soteriology.
But I like and agree with your last sentence :)
HankD -
As students of theology, we all hold positions on these questions. Using terms, such as Calvinism or Arminianism are just ways of letting others know where we fall on these doctrines. It does not mean the following of men. It has nothing to do with those verses from 1 Corinthians.
If you truly have no position on these things, you have not read your Bible well. -
That is true sometimes but not usually, it is easy to justify and deny our adoration of men. The pride of life.
you are wrong again.
HankD -
Well argued, Hank.
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We finally agree. :)
HankD
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