You can almost always see them coming...

So "anyone" does not mean "anyone". That's what happens when you read the Bible through the lens of a particular system.

 

Yet you placed yourself in the upper 5% of spiritually mature Christians.</font>[/QUOTE]I did no such thing. I never said that Calvinists are more spiritually mature than non-Calvinists, or any such thing. Never. I did not say it. I do not believe it.

Why should the body of Christ organize its meetings around the concerns of unbelievers? I sense that we have very different ideas about what is supposed to be taking place on Sunday mornings when the church gathers.

 

All about Grace,

2 Peter 3.9: God is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The "you" is the word that clarifies the "anyone" and "everyone" in the passage.

The you is not singular. It is plural as in the way a Texan might say ya'll

Now who are the ya'll? If we go to the start of 2 Peter this is how it reads;

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

So it was written to the people of God.

Whenever we read "us", "we", "ours", in the New Test, it is always referring to us "believers". It does not refer to each and every person of the entire human race.

When the word "world" is used as "for God so loved the world" it is clarified by the other words in the statement as well as passages before it like;

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish , but have everlasting life."

It is clear that "believers" do not perish.
By using other portions of Scripture we know that unbelievers perish.

We are back to sovereign election again......because as you and I both know it takes an absolute miracle of God to enable a lost sinner (of which we all were) to believe!

It is like the text;

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

This is probably how you are inside you! You labor and strive for the souls of men. God moves you as such.

You (as you do with us on here) claim that Jesus Christ is the Savior! And you yourself know that you could preach and preach and preach all your life and unless God moves in a soul they simply will not come.

It is telling us about the outward calling of all men with the effectual call to those men He saves.

Men are called (outward calling) to be saved by Jesus Christ the Savior of all men.

The fact remains that men are never by nature willing to come to be saved.

So although the calling out of "Jesus Christ is Savior" is towards all men, and since no men are willing by nature to come to Him, but rather all men by nature are bound and disposed to rejection, sin, blindness, and death, willingly.........

He is the Savior especially to those that believe in Him! Those would be those that were unwilling in their first nature but made willing by the inward effectual call of God to come to Him.

I hope you will admit that some Churches are immature. We all should know that. With many things we should not want to cause others to stumble when it is in regard for example "the type of food we eat" or minor issues.

Some things going on in Christian churches however are not minor and are deplorable and ungodly. I will not say that those that call on the name of Christ are not saved........it is hardly my position to do so. However, there sure are some that dont act like they are!

We should have the right to question teachings and lead each other into maturity.

If a pastor was to teach that we must worship Mary for example.....I should have every right to question his claim. I would hope that my mind would be conformed to Scripture in all regards on the issue.

I understand that even Christians such as me can be messed up. I have a fallen nature and am not perfect and most certainly can make mistakes. And I do!

I can also be forgiving on issues. But to forgive does not mean I have to accept what is plain error.

You should remember that as a pastor you are more likely in your line of work to see more people come to Christ simply because of what you are. People come to Churches.

That does not mean that Christian housewives, butchers, pilots, drivers, daycare workers, janitors, and all the other workers of the Christian world are not in the will of God.

There are many noble professions. And work is a blessing. These workers many times provide for many others.....including pastors!

We all know that those that do not work should not eat..(not in regard to those incapable)....and we also do not muzzle the ox as it treads.

Some of these people care just as much about the souls of those in and around them in their daily lives as you and I do. Many times when these workers of God preach about Christ they are mocked, ridiculed, shamed, tormented, and treated as foul.

There was a guy where I worked that made many comments about shooting me in the head just because he knew I was a Christian, and I did not even preach anything to him!

We can be quite certain that even though these workers might see little in the way of conversion around them.....they still weep inside for others.

I am hoping you have some tough skin......you know with the "forked tongue" bit! LOL

Trust me....I have explained things with a forked tongue before also! LOL It was not in reference to you being a liar....just they way it was explained!

God bless! KJB

 

I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I assumed your phrase "poorly taught Christians" has to do with a person's spiritual maturity level. So can a person be a poorly taught Christian and a mature Christian at the same time?

We don't organize our "meetings" around the concerns of unbelievers. But neither do we organize them with only believers in mind.

We practice the thirds principle: we want our weekend services to be composed of three types of people: spiritually mature, new believers, unbelievers. We want about a third of each type.

What takes place is worship of God and biblically based teaching that engages the heart and mind.

 

Another great example of Calvinistic hermeneutical gymnastics. You are forced to make these verses say these things because of your system.

Study the Greek. It is not the natural reading.

All is fun and games on the BB.

Actually I have only read about 1/4 of what you have written. Your posts are extremely wordy and hard to follow at times. No offense intended.

 

All about Grace,

OUCH! lol Have I ever told you about my thin skin?

I know a lot of people that say the same thing about the Bible.

May I ask which 1/4 part you read? If it is the first 1/4 I will add 3/4 more to the last part of my next post.

That may be the way I can get you to read the first 1/4.

Regards, KJB

 

Of course. One can be poorly taught about what Calvinism is actually all about and yet be well taught about many other things. I am not really surprised at the level of ignorance about Calvinism today, but I continue to be surprised at the amount of venom that flows toward Calvinists.

What is your basis for desiring this blend?

That sounds like marketing-speak. What does it mean?

 

whatever,

The blend is one third and one fourth.

It comes from the one third one fourth principle.

Actually I have only read about 1/4 of what you have written. Your posts are extremely wordy and hard to follow at times. No offense intended.

I bet this is the case in regard to many church groups with the Bible also.

And the one third theory;

We don't organize our "meetings" around the concerns of unbelievers. But neither do we organize them with only believers in mind. We practice the thirds principle: we want our weekend services to be composed of three types of people: spiritually mature, new believers, unbelievers. We want about a third of each type.

It is a strange plan. The door greeters keep running tabs when people arrive. When the mature outnumber unbelievers, the mature are turned away. It is the third policy in the third principle formula!

On days when unbelievers do not come, the mature and the new believers do not meet.

When unbelievers outnumber their proper portion of a third, the unbelievers meet and pick which 3/4 of the Bible is too wordy and too hard to follow.

Hope that all makes sense because it sure doesn't to me! lol

Regards, KJB

 

We just believe it is a good life cycle for our church -- one-third who are mature in their faith who are able to help disciple and teach the one-third who are new Christians. And then if the first two groups are actively inviting their friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. then we normally have about a third who have not crossed the line of faith.

There is no scientific method for maintaining this balance. It is simply one that we strive for b/c we believe it reflects a church that is involved in all aspects of the Great Commission (making disciples through evangelism and teaching).

Obviously this method is not for every church, but in our culture it works for us.

We want God to be worshipped and the hearer (participant) to be engaged. Again - the truth is always true but it is not always PERCEIVED as true (because of teaching or worship that does not engage the hearer). Our goal week after week is to help every attendee take another step on their spiritual journey -- the believer to grow & the unbeliever to take another step toward Christ (again the sovereign call is a prerequisite here -- I am just speaking in human language only).

While I am a strong believer in evangelism and churches reaching lost people, I am not an advocate of "repeat after me" evangelistic techniques. We believe unbelievers normally come to Christ through a process of relationships, being engaged with the truth, and recognizing their need for a Savior. Sometimes this happens instantaneously. Most of the time it is a process that occurs over time. We simply help them make that journey by engaging their heart and mind. We want them to desire to come back the next week, and the next, etc. At some point, they usually cross that line of faith.

That's just the simplicity of our method -- nothing fancy -- just engaging normal people with the reality of God's truth in a way that helps them understand their need for Jesus Christ.

Of course we know God is the one working behind the scenes to draw. Yet we also believe we should make the message as engaging as possible without compromising its core content.

 

AaG,

Thanks for explaining.

 

New here, first visit is facinating! Just an observation or two. The average Joe and Jane in most any crowd are lost until Christ pierces their heart with His love and calls them to Himself, right? Only then can they have thirst to learn what it means to live for HIm.
As a most happy and privileged member of the doctrines of grace I know that only God knows who the elect are. They have no mark on their back! Sooo, we witness and share the gospel with everybody we possibly can! The five points of calvinism were formed after Calvins death and only reflected his knowledge of the bible doctrines!

 

Welcome.

Theologically this statement sounds correct, but practically speaking, this is simply not the case. We have unbelievers who have a sincere desire to understand what it means to live the Christian life. Obviously it is God's work in their hearts, but many of them have yet to cross the line of faith and would tell you so. We have many unbelievers who invite family, friends, and neighbors prior to their own spiritual commitment to Christ.

Unbelievers in small groups. Unbelievers attending church regularly. Unbelievers asking sincere theological questions. Unbelievers reading their Bibles. Unbelievers inviting others to our church. Unbelievers "serving" in certain ministries. Unbelievers taking notes and asking spiritual questions. All of these are signs that your above statement is not as black and white as we like to make it.

Although die hard Calvinists despise the term, practically speaking there are real seekers out there who are seeking for answers that we offer in the gospel.

 

Of course, the Bible says that "no one seeks for God". That's why I do not like the term. This phenomenon you describe is real, and those people are seeking something, but they are not seeking God, if Paul is to be believed. To advertise that "we have what you are looking for", when the Bible says that what we have is not what they are looking for, smacks of dishonesty and is unbecoming the body of Christ.

 

Although die hard Calvinists despise the term, practically speaking there are real seekers out there who are seeking for answers that we offer in the gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]According to John 6:44 " No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day". Sooo, as Spurgeon said,"Born as all of us are by nature, an 'Armenian', I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the Grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. The thought struck me: 'How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the LOrd. 'But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment....I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself: 'How came I to pray?...I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. I did read them; but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith. It was then the whole doctrine of Grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make it my constant confession. I ascribe my change wholly to God. John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day! Sola gratia!! Soooo, any who are SINCERELY seeking Him, will be found by Him!

 

Hi Herenow;

Your right! The real problem is that Calvinist aren't able to prove God limited it to anyone inparticular. All man was created for the purpose of worshiping God. There is no other logical reason.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

2BHizown, whatever,

Amen!

Lord, I was blind: I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf: I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb: I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy Name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead: I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin’s dark sepulcher.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo, I break
The chains of my captivity.

(William Tidd Matson)

’Tis not that I did choose Thee,
For Lord, that could not be;
This heart would still refuse Thee,
Hadst Thou not chosen me.
Thou from the sin that stained me
Hast cleansed and set me free;
Of old Thou hast ordained me,
That I should live to Thee.

’Twas sov’reign mercy called me
And taught my op’ning mind;
The world had else enthralled me,
To heav’nly glories blind.
My heart owns none before Thee,
For Thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love Thee,
Thou must have loved me first.

(Jo­si­ah Con­der)

Regards, KJB

 

"And the disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?' He answered and said to them, 'Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. ... Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
"‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.’
“But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." Matthew 13:10-17

"He said to me: 'Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. For they are impudent and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ As for them, whether they hear or whether they refuse—for they are a rebellious house—yet they will know that a prophet has been among them." Ezekiel 2:3-5

"You shall speak My words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse..." Ezekiel 2:7

"Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,'
and 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.'
"They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." 1 Peter 2:7-10

 

Hi King James Bond;
Show one verse that says that says man cannot hear the gospel or understand it.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Ah....but men can hear! ONLY if God enables.

 

Hi King James Bond;

Then you admit that you have no scriptural reason for believing that man can't hear or understand the gospel. It's called man made doctrine.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike