I would rebuke a person, a Christian who would defend heresy.
Otherwise I would hope I would show very clearly the heresy of the RCC.
Your view on Catholics
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Fignar, Jan 13, 2010.
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Study the Catechism. There is no gospel. No message of salvation by grace through faith. It is a false gospel of works by which one cannot be saved. -
It sounds like a major issue with you is with the idea of salvation not being based on faith alone.
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It is impossible to believe in Purgatory, for example, and still believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all your sins. -
FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I will debate their doctrine. I will point out their errors -- as I see them anyway. Hopefully with heaps of love and grace thrown in. Engage in discussions. Try to better understand their point of view. Pray with and for them.
What I won't do is tell them that they are not a Christian when they claim they are. -
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HP: Now that is a novel point for some to consider, i.e., actually posting in accordance to the stated rules of this forum. Hmmmmm. :wavey: -
He just claims that our understanding of grace is different than a 'true believers' understanding of grace.
DHK has a hatred of the Catholic Church. No matter how many times he is corrected as to the true teaching of the Church he will say that the Catholic Church teaches a system of salvation of Works alone. He is WRONG! -
Tell me. Is baptism "a means of grace"? Yes or no.
Is baptism "a work"? Yes or no.
How is it obtained according to the RCC Catechism.
How is it obtained according to the Bible.
Correct me where I am wrong. But if you are wrong, will you accept correction? -
'It is impossible to believe in Purgatory, for example, and still believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all your sins.'
It is Christ sacrifice that makes EVERYTHING sufficient for sins. Purgatory is a process of Theosis not a 'second chance at salvation'. When you die your are either bound to hell or bound to heaven. You can't earn salvation in purgatory. It is a process of Theosis. Your salvation has already been determined by whether you turned to Jesus, repented of your sins (here on earth) and confessed with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead to prove He was the Son of God."
If you made that confession of faith sometime during your life here on earth you will have a new spirit (as I did) within you and desire to follow Christ to spread the Good News of salvation in Christ Jesus. For me it is my participation in Many, Many Catholic Evangelistic crusades where hundreds and sometimes thousands repent and turn to Jesus as Lord and Savior. False Gospel you say, DHK. My bible says: Romans 3:23,Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9. Oh, and 'Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
I could care less if it happens in a Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc.
We should rejoice with the angels when one lost person turns to Jesus as Lord and Savior. -
1. If you were to stand before God right now, and He were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell God?
2. Based on that answer, what kind of a percentage do you give youself (out of 100) of God letting you in?
Based upon the answers to those three questions, I have a really good idea if I am dealing with a true Christian, or someone who needs Christ and all the loving help I can offer so they might understand and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. IOW - If by their answer I believe they might not, then I am bound by love and the great commision to tell them, and then talk with them about scripture, my beliefs, about my concern with whatever part that lead me to question their statement of being a christain -
'OK, then, define grace. What is it?
How is it obtained according to the RCC Catechism.
How is it obtained according to the Bible.'
Study the bible, study the Catechism (derived from the bible0
I found it to be in 'one accord' -
1. I will never be deified; there is only one God.
2. I already am made holy; holy through the blood of Christ.
3. I already at union with Christ; it happened when I was saved.
4. My salvation is complete. It can't get any more complete than what it is right now. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if I were to die right now I would go straight to heaven. All my sins are forgiven--past, present and future. There is no greater salvation than this. I wait for the resurrection of my body, and that is all. I am delivered already from every form of sin.
--Thus theosis is heresy. No wonder you believe in purgatory. It is founded on a false premise.
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Ask me those questions (I am a Catholic Christian) and ask any number of Catholics in my community. You will find you need to concentrate your efforts on the J.W. and Mormons because most of the Catholics in my area KNOW the plan of salvation and are TRUE Christians. Most of the non-Catholics who do show up at my door have never been to a Catholic Church, don't know it is a bible church and believe it is just church where the 'true gospel' is avoided and substituted with vain, repetitious prayers with some hocus pocus thrown in.
Ask if I were to die where I would expect to spend eternity? Ask me if I were to stand in the presence of almighty why I should be allowed entrance into the heaven and not hell. Ask me if I believe that Christ blood shed on the cross was ALL sufficient to take away ALL my sins and for those of the whole world. St. John say: if any man sins, he has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for not my sins only but for the sins of the whole world.
I truly hope you continue asking people those questions though. The answers they give and the guidance through His word, of course, have eternal consequences.:wavey: -
So answer the questions I gave you. They are simple enough. -
First I desire to go on the record as saying that I do not support of believe in many, if not most, Catholic doctrines, and would even say that concerning most DHK is right on.
With that aside Lori, trust me, it is not only the Catholics that he claims presents a works based salvation. He does precisely to others as Augustine did to Pelagius. When Pelagius denied that man needed no special ability to respond to the gospel, Augustine charged Pelagius with denying grace. Of a truth, Augustine, in all his false characterizations of his detractors, lives on through men like DHK today.
Grace, under the necessitated system of Calvinism, reduces grace to mere justice. If God is going to punish men for the natures they are born with, it is justice that demands God give men an opportunity to hear a message of grace to escape their otherwise necessitated fate, not grace. Grace is only seen as grace when God grants to men that have ‘chosen’ sin as opposed to the ability to choose love, and have did despite every ability granted to them enabling them to act in an appropriate manner. Now when God offers such rebels an opportunity to escape the JUST deserts of their actions, having been granted from first light of moral agency every necessary ability to obey if they only would have exercised those abilities, does grace take upon itself it’s true meaning. -
Repent AND be Baptized.
You say it is not necessary. The bible CLEARLY does! So do the vast majority of Christian Churches.
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