Your view on Catholics

'My salvation was given to me as a free gift of God the moment I put my trust in him. It was granted to me by faith alone.;

Me too, Romans 10:9

 

Lori, in fairness you need to specify what baptism applies, and where and by whom it must be administered according to Catholic doctrine to be effective in saving ones soul. I would say that there beliefs are not synonymous with ‘most’ of the Church.

 

Good night all!

I'm meeting with some people who have never been to church in their lives and I ask your prayers that God will guide me (through his Holy Scripture) to lead them to the Lord.

Denominationalism will not be a part of this discussion. They have none and I'd be happy if they decided to try out the Freewill Baptist Church two blocks down from me!

 

HP: Amen Lori. God can lead them in and God can lead them out if they need to go elsewhere. Good attitude. May God give you wisdom and may you receive of Divine unction in sharing the gospel!

 

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you knew the Greek behind this you would have a better understanding of it. There are some good scholars on this board many of them that can explain it better than I.
However,
Repent, and be baptized...for the remission of sins.
The word "for" in the Greek is "eis", and has many meanings.
Look at a parallel passage.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
The word "unto" is the same word: "eis"

What did John require? John required repentance before he would baptism them. I baptize you with water "because of your repentance" would be the gist of the verse. Or, "on account of" John did not baptize so that they would receive repentance did he? Baptism does not give one repentance.
In the same way baptism does not give one remission of sins. It is the same construction in the Greek. One is baptized because his sins have been remitted, or on account of the remission of his sins. It is the same construction that is used in Matthew 3:11

 

This is the last post I have time for tonight. The Church teaches that any Christian can baptize, the person baptized must make a profession of faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, repent of their sins and be contrite (either by word of mouth or in case of extreme emergency they may squeeze a hand) and then water is poured over the person in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. We also thank God for sending His Holy Spirit upon this person as he/she has professed his/her new life in Christ and is born again by water and and Holy Spirit.

Hope I didn't leave out any 'essentials' but as I said I have people coming to the door at any minute.

May the peace of Christ be with all of you!

 

DHK, I promise I will give more time to this soon. Thanks for your response

 

You say the catholic church does not require works for salvation. The above statement of yours clearly shows that to not be true. Baptism is a work. If you need to be baptized for salvation, as you state above, then it is not by faith alone.

 

Correct. I liken it this way:

Last summer, we had a big party for my brother in law's 50th birthday.

Now, obviously, every Catholic here knows that the use of the word "for" in this case means that we had a party in response and in commemoration of his birthday, not that it was necessary for us to hold a party in order for him to turn 50.

Same with the verse in question. Just like my brother in law's 50th birthday party, our baptism is in response, in commemoration of our being born again and the remission of our sins, not as a means of remission of sins.

 

HP: I agree with that which you stated here DHK. Note also that it was not mere words of repentance required by John either. Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:” John wanted to see some fruits of their repentance, some formed intents followed by actions he could witness.

In Lori’s case is it not true that she may in fact believe in her heart just as you say here, regardless of what the Catholic Church teaches or has taught in past reality? If her idea of the doctrines of the Catholic Church are inconsistent with actual dogmas taught, could we not both rejoice together saying, "Oh those blessed inconsistencies?"

As my wife related to me, regardless what the Church taught or failed to teach, she understood what God required out of her and her conscience bore clear testimony to her when she did or did not obey. She stated she would be denying the truth to say she did not have a relationship with God as a child and young teen, long before leaving the Catholic Church.

If the heart is set on finding and obeying God, God can and will be found regardless of the setting or even concerning the rectitude of many of the doctrines taught. That is not to say we should not study and seek to present sound doctrines by all means.

 

And this is where almost every Baptist would say: Heresy!

To equate baptism with the new birth is Roman Catholic doctrine but it is heretical. It is called baptismal regeneration, that is that baptism saves a person. And, again, that is impossible according to the Scriptures. Jesus saves; not water, not baptism. This is salvation by works, not by grace, not by faith, not through the blood of Christ, not through the work of Christ, not through anything that Christ has done for us, but through a work of man--baptism. That is salvation by works--the same religion that all the other religions of the world have.

Further you say that at this time the Holy Spirit comes into the life of the person baptized. How do you know that? What evidence is there? Will you admit that here you are going on blind faith with no evidence at all. The only thing that you have is: not the Bible, but the RCC Catechism, which at this point is very flawed.

John 3:1-13, which teaches the new birth teaches nothing about water baptism. There is not a single reference to baptism in that passage--not one. Even in verse five "water and the Spirit," there is no reference to baptism. Water could mean the Pacific Ocean for all you know, or maybe a fishbowl, (it doesn't), but neither does it mean baptism. It simply says "water," that is all. What if you were read "baptism" into the Bible every instance the word "water" was used? It wouldn't make much sense would it? And it doesn't make sense here either. The context doesn't warrant baptism.

Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews, a rabbi. He came to Jesus by night for fear of the Jews. First, this took place at night--there were no baptisms taking place. Second, he was a rabbi--they don't baptize and he wouldn't have baptism on his mind at the slightest mention of water. Third, being a rabbi, he would know the OT scriptures thoroughly, and they also do not speak of baptism. Fourthly, if there would have been any structure in sight it would have been the Temple. Any thought of water, other than
Biblical references would have been to the many ceremonial washings of the Jews done at the Temple, for there were many of them.
But knowing the Scriptures as he did, his mind probably went back to the OT. What is water used for? He knew it was used for washing--its primary usage as seen at the Temple. Perhaps he thought of Psalm 119:9

Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
--Water symbolizes the Word of God, for it is the Word of God that cleanses.

What is the verse in question here:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--One must be born of water and of the Spirit.
Note that there are two agents here: water and the Spirit.
Most agree that we all must be born of the Holy Spirit.
But what does the water represent? That is the question.

Let's continue:
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Jesus said that we are clean through the Word.
Water is a cleansing agent. The Word cleanses us, just as it does in Psalm 119:9. Here these two verses are saying the same thing. There are only two agents mentioned in John 3:5, whereby a person must be born again: water and the Spirit. Water represents the Word of God. It cleanses us.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--Here James gets more specific.
The word begat means "born." We are born with the Word. How are we born again--with the Word of God. That is the teaching here. There are two agents: the Word and the Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--There it is so plainly written. We are born again by the Word of God.
There are two agents by which a person is born again: the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Both are necessary to the New Birth. The Word of God is necessary for therein is the gospel by message by which one is saved. The Spirit of God is necessary for one cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. Both are necessary. Thus, the water is only symbolic of the Word of God, as the rest of Scripture teaches.
Baptism isn't even in the passage.

What does baptism do?
It gets you wet, and that is all.
It is done in obedience to Christ after salvation, and has nothing to do with salvation. There is no grace imparted at the time of baptism. It just gets you wet.

 

DHK, for what it is worth I have flagged your last post to Lori. You twist her words with little to no regard for what she has in reality said or believes.

What do you base the notion on that states: ‘no grace is imparted at baptism?’ Jesus had no need to simply get wet, but He did appear to indicate He had a need to be baptized. I for one do not believe water baptism is essential for salvation or to enter heaven, so I hardly support baptismal regeneration. I do feel there is grace to be imparted as a result of following our Lord in water baptism. NOT grace for salvation (although that might be possible if in fact that would happen to be the time one sincerely repents) but rather grace to help motivate us to live the Christian life.

I believe God can and does grant grace to us as a result of, with honest hearts and minds, partaking of the sacraments. To say that all baptism does is to get us wet takes away from the importance and impetus of the sacrament period. Grace is not something only good or needed for the initial act of salvation.

 

Your statements above are precisely the reason I asked Lori to define "grace," which she hasn't done yet. By your statements it seems that your definition of "grace" would line up more with the RCC than with the Bible, or with how a Baptist would define "grace."

 

The Holy Spirit is not permitted to act during a water baptism? Interesting.

 

Could you define grace for us DHK?

 

How does a baby do this? The RCC baptizes baby's all the time. Why?

 

HP: I for one will allow the Holy Spirit to work whenever and however He so chooses to act. If Scripture states that He cannot act during or at baptism, I failed to find that passage. Now on the other hand, if one demands that that is when and only when He must work I would take exception to that remark as well.

 

I personally like the definition of 'unmerited favor' for grace myself. Simple and to the point.

 

I believe God can bestow grace upon a couple even at a wedding ceremony or at any time our hearts are fixed on seeking His blessing and approval.

 

That is what I have asked Lori to do. I am still waiting.
For you I will ask this question:
What relationship is there between the Holy Spirit and two atoms of hydrogen combined with one atom of oxygen or multiples thereof?