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Featured Zechariah - Christ centred prophecy

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Covenanter, Mar 5, 2017.

  1. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;
    shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
    behold, thy King cometh unto thee:
    he is just, and having salvation;
    lowly, and riding upon an ass,
    and upon a colt the foal of an ass.


    We all know & love that wonderful prophecy, & its glorious fulfillment as Jesus rode into Jerusalem for a welcome as the prophesied son of David:
    And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

    There were several references to Zechariah in the now closed 'Revelation' thread. I'll quote these, & then hopefully start a serious & profitable discussion on the whole prophecy of Zechariah.
     
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  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I look forward to this topic being explored further. Certainly one of the keys to understanding Zech. is to see that it is Christ centered.
     
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  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That Zechariah is 'Christ-centred prophecy' is not an issue. All Scripture is about Christ (John 5:39 etc.) and 'The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy' (Revelation 19:10). The question concerning Zechariah arose when Hank gave Zech 14 as an example of 2nd Coming OC prophecy.
    I would agree that Zech 14 is about the New Jerusalem, but can you point me to anywhere else in the Scriptures where the Jews are described as 'all nations' which is what you seem to be claiming here?
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Theses words are not metaphorical but a fulfillment of the promise of His BODILY return given in Acts 1

    Acts 1
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


    This same Jesus - Not Titus.
    shall so come in like manner as ye have SEEN Him go into heaven (BODILY - He went up in a body he will return in like manner - in a body - BODILY).

    Then they returned to Jerusalem from The MOUNT OF OLIVES.

    He will come back BODILY and every eye shall SEE Him.
    Where will He come back? The same place He left from - The MOUNT OF OLIVES...

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    HankD
     
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  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I think you miss the point about why I said Christ-centered, but first I need to ask what you mean by the "all nations" referring to the Jews. I cannot find where anyone said that.
     
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  7. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    "In like manner" is an adverbial phrase, not adjectival (which would be "in like form"). As they were watching He was taken up into a cloud. It says nothing about a physical return.

    But what does manner refer to? It refers to how they saw Him leave. How did He leave? Invisibly. "A cloud took Him out of their sight."

    Notice very carefully the order of events. The angel's words came in vs. 11, well after the disciples were still gazing - but not seeing - the risen Christ. A cloud had already hidden Him.

    Concerning the phrase "in like manner" I thought Joseph Vincent had the right idea:

    "Even more important to understand here is the phrase itself, “in like manner.” Let us examine the Greek term, hon tropon, rendered “like manner” in Acts 1:11; giving all the passages where it occurs in the Bible, and then let those who are so adamant about the exact manner be just as adamant in all the passages where it occurs elsewhere.

    1. "Now “in the same way” (hon tropon) James and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these resist the truth." (2 Timothy 3:8)

    2. Exodus 7th & 8th chapters in regard to those magicians—Satan’s mediums.

    "Will you kill me, “as” (hon tropon) you did the Egyptian yesterday? (Acts 7:28)

    3. "Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem...how often I would have gathered my children together, even “as” (hon tropon --like manner) a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not. (Matt. 23:37 and Luke 13:34)"

    Source:
    https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html
     
    #7 asterisktom, Mar 5, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps I have read the comments wrongly, but Zechariah 14:2 states that the Lord will being 'all nations to battle against Jerusalem.' Then covenanter wrote:
    Therefore it seems to me that he is saying that the Jews are the 'all nations' and they are attacking Jerusalem. If I'm wrong, no doubt he will explain.

    It also seems to me that Preterists are obsessed with the Jews to an extent that would make a Dispensationalist blush
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Our seeming obsession with the Jews is actually an obsession (for want of a better word) with God's dealing with them - and, by extension, us. Much of what you, futurists of all stripes, see as future prophecy we see as redemptive history. By Christ-centered I mean focused on what Christ did, and what we have now through Him - not what He will do in the future.

    It only seems like obsession with the Jews because they were the original recipients of the blessings and inheritance that we have now entered into. All Christians have a real and profound interest in those past events (present possessions) that are written here in Zechariah. Many of those events are those "in that Day" passages.

    In short, much of what you seem to see as eschatology (future) is actually present Christology. By casting much of these passages in the future, you overlook many past and present applications. This comes from all too often imposing a literal grid over a spiritual message.
     
    #9 asterisktom, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Well by doing this, of course, you cut yourself off from a third of Christology. All Christians focus on what Christ has done for us, by His incarnation, teaching, sinless life, death, resurrection and ascension, and on what He is doing for us now as our Great High Priest and as King reigning in heaven. But there is also our 'Blessed Hope'- our expectation of the physical return of Christ and a new physical heaven and earth where righteousness reigns. Now I am aware that orthodox Preterists also believe that too, and I assume that Covenanter and Kyredneck are in that group.
    My hope is in the Lord Jesus Christ and His physical return in glory, which I see in Zech 14. Past events and present possessions are great, but future hope is also important. The destruction of Jerusalem and the salvation of the Christians through it are an adumbration of a far greater event in history at the end of time.
    I do not impose any such grid. Indeed, I think it quite wrong to try and read apocalyptic literature literally. I merely assert that you cannot make a wax nose out of Scripture, wrench it out of context and push it into the shape that you require in order to fit your eschatological grid. That is not interpretation, it is wresting the Scriptures.
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK Tom, of course you must use metaphor language to explain Acts 1:6-12 and I knew that you of all the preterists could do justice with that kind of response.

    Obviously compared to the Zechariah 14 passage it is even more difficult to defend

    "this same Jesus" and
    "in like manner" and
    "every eye shall see Him"
    causing your response that seems very unlikely but you did a noble job.

    Take the last word if you feel you should.

    Let the readers decide.

    Thanks Tom
    HankD
     
    #11 HankD, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    AOBTW Tom,

    Are you still in Cathay (if you have not already answered)?
    Are you and yours doing well?

    I wish you well Tom and Godspeed my brother.

    HankD
     
    #12 HankD, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  13. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I suggest the Acts 1 prophecy should be understood in conjunction with other 'coming' prophecies.

    And Zechariah 14 discussion should be deferred until we've considered 1-13.
     
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Why? It is related IMO.

    HankD
     
  15. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Because we need to understand Zechariah in its context before we interpret.

    Zechariah 1 -
    The opening verses remind his readers of Israel's history - a recurring cycle of obedience, disobedience, discipline, prophetic call to repentance, and restoration.
    Then the visions start ....
    God is watching over his people, encouraging them in the immediate task of rebuilding temple and nation, and assuring them of the Messianic promises.
    "I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD.
     
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  16. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, Hank. Still in China. Doing well but things are getting a little bit troublesome. But we are always encouraged here, as well.
     
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  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Well I agree but of course the timing probably differs between us.

    Thanks
    :)
    HankD
     
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  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Praying for you and yours.

    HankD
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When messiah came, a fountain was opened for all israel to be cleansed and saved, not at first coming though!
     
  20. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Read Acts 2. Thousands of Jews " from every nation under heaven" repented and were baptised. Peter showed them the pierced Christ.
    Eze. 36:24ff also prophecies Pentecost.
    In Luke 24 Jesus teaches that he is the fulfilment of OC prophecy.
     
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