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  #1  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:09 AM
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Default Are Heaven and Paradise the same?

... John 10:7-9 In this passage and other gospel references Jesus states the case clearly that He is the gate into Heaven. Read the four Gospels carefully and it is quite clear that that nobody has ever, nor will anyone ever, entered into Heaven except they come through Jesus. In the Gospels we also find the story of Lazarus, covered with sores with no-one but the dogs that licked his wounds, to care for him. We find Lazarus in Abraham's Buxom, a.k.a. Paradise, and the rich man, not in Hell (he has not yet been judged) but in a place of torment.
... Going deeper into this matter, Jesus, in the four Gospel Accounts, makes it clear that He is not just some way or a way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but He makes it clear that He is the way, the only way, to enter into Heaven.
... We are left with all those Old Testament saints, Moses, Abraham, Israel/Jacob and on and on that looked forward to the coming of Messiah but had not seen Him and could not enter into the presence of God until they had. Matt. 27:52 through v:54 is seldom preached but it is an important passage and it is felt by this lay teacher that it bears on this subject.
... It has been and short of the pastors and the men on the mission field that will receive this posting, that these dead people running through the streets of the Holy City are the just released, by Jesus, Old Testament saints. It is taught, in many circles that Jesus descended into Hell for three days but the only place I have ever found that statement is in the Christian Creeds of old and I have, to this point, failed to see the idea supported by scripture.
... So, the short answer to the question, "Are Heaven and Paradise the same place," is no.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:42 AM
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Hi th1Bill;
Quote:
It is taught, in many circles that Jesus descended into Hell for three days but the only place I have ever found that statement is in the Christian Creeds of old and I have, to this point, failed to see the idea supported by scripture.
David wrote;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

MB
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:47 AM
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Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:49 AM
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The OP is a great question. A careful look at scripture indicates no. Paradise and Heaven were not the same thing. In Jewish tradition, when a righteous person died, they went to Sheol (the resting place of the dead) and were in a state of being in "Abraham's bosom". Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection. When he died at the crucifixion, he descended into Sheol, where he resumanbly remained until being resurrected. Yet, he told the thief he would be with him "this day" in Paradise. Paradise here referrs to Abraham's bosom in Sheol.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:08 AM
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I disagree that Abraham's Bosom was a different place than Heaven...and to answer the OP, if Paradise is a place where Christ is present, there is no separation from God. Paradise / Heaven are one in the same.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The context of that passage is dealing with the sign of Jesus' bodily resurrection. It says nothing of where Christ actually was for the three days, and unless soul sleep is a fact, Christ was with the Father.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:26 AM
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Webdog, I would disagree with you on that.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This was after Jesus had risen from the dead and spoke to Mary Magdalene. He said he had not yet ascended to the Father.
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Webdog, I would disagree with you on that.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This was after Jesus had risen from the dead and spoke to Mary Magdalene. He said he had not yet ascended to the Father.
Yes...with His newly resurrected body. He said nothing of being with the Father prior. The only position that would be true using your understanding would be soul sleep.
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:

Yes...with His newly resurrected body. He said nothing of being with the Father prior. The only position that would be true using your understanding would be soul sleep.
I don't understand what you are saying here, could you explain in detail?

I may not get back till tomorrow, but I would appreciate an explanation.
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog View Post
I disagree that Abraham's Bosom was a different place than Heaven...and to answer the OP, if Paradise is a place where Christ is present, there is no separation from God. Paradise / Heaven are one in the same.
... That is an interesting spin you have put on my words, it is a spin most often twirled by the lost man. I ever said that Jesus is not in Heaven. My case is built on the scriptures and the truth is that Jesus did not ascend into Heaven until He was resurrected on the third day and the truth of the matter is that Jesus never descended into the Lake of Fire, a.k.a. Hell, but He did open the gates of Paradise, a.k.a. Abraham's Buxom, allowing the Old Testament saints to enter Heaven after He preached to them.
... Now, I did not offer you my opinion, I presented you, both of my pastors, several missionaries on the field in Central America and Africa the Biblical case for my stance. To be blunt and honest, your opinion, without scripture, is of no value at all. By the taking of the name Christian, we admit that our status is Bond Servant, a.k.a. Slave, belonging to God. As His servants it is His opinion that we must seek.
... May God bless all of His servants!

Quote:
For God to "bless all His servants, the poster must not infer that others are lost, i.e.
Quote:
"it is a spin most often twirled by the lost man."

DHK

Last edited by DHK; 10-08-2009 at 12:44 PM.
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