85-year-old says she was strip searched at JFK

[TCassidy]

90% gun ownership in the US? Please tell me this is a typo and you don't honestly believe it.

Maybe I didn't state that very well. The fact is that there are 88 guns for every 100 people in the US as of 2007. That number has grown significantly in the past three years. Granted many people own several, so it does not mean that 90 (rounded from 88)% of the populous own a gun. However, the US has the highest gun ownership per capita of any country in the world. I believe it is an interesting correlation between the country with the most personal freedom and the country with the most guns per capita. It appears the 2nd Amendment is working, at least against foreign threats. "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japanese Navy) World War II.

 

[targus]

You seem to have, once again, missed the point! They have no Constitutional justification for the search! None! Nada! Zip! Zero!

Now do you understand?

And you have no constitutional right to fly on an airplane. None, nada, zip, zero.

If you don't want to be searched - then don't fly.

 

[Don]

And you have no constitutional right to fly on an airplane. None, nada, zip, zero.

If you don't want to be searched - then don't fly.

It's not about constitutional right to fly, or ride on a train. It's about an erosion of the constitution.

We've already said that we don't care about the 4th amendment, we're okay with being searched, even though we haven't done anything wrong, because we think maybe that guy over there has. So yeah, go ahead and search me, because I want to make sure he gets searched, too.

So which one do we give up next, so that we can feel a little safer? At what point do we decide not to live in fear any more?

 

[Don]

Targus, I'll put it one more way: I owe you, and the rest of the American population, a huge apology.

I spent six months in Iraq, and a year in Afghanistan, plus eight weeks prior to each of those for training. I didn't have near the experiences that Sapper Woody has been having; but remind me sometime to tell you about the "cup tots."

The fact that we're still stripping down great-grandmothers at the airport; that we think this is okay; that we're still scared enough that we not only accept it, but think that it's not something we should be upset about....

Well, the job was to make the world safer, to make it so that you and others aren't so scared to travel that we have to strip-search senior citizens who are too frail to defend themselves. So I failed, and for that, I'm truly sorry that I couldn't do better.

 

[targus]

Don, thanks for your service.

If there is no right to fly - how has there been an erosion of rights if one can simply choose to travel by other means if one does not want to be searched?

Are you against luggage scanning?

If not why not?

Isn't that a violation of your rights against searches?

 

[TCassidy]

And you have no constitutional right to fly on an airplane. None, nada, zip, zero.

If you don't want to be searched - then don't fly.

You also seem to have missed the point. The TSA is a branch of the US Government. The airline has the right to do any thing they please as a condition of boarding their flight, but the US Government has NOTHING TO SAY about the issue, and is restricted, by the Constitution of the United States, from conducting any search or seizure without probable cause and due process.

If the airlines were running the security gate I would have no problem at all with it, but it is not the airlines, it is the Government, and the Constitution limits what the Government can do.

Got it now?

 

[freeatlast]

You also seem to have missed the point. The TSA is a branch of the US Government. The airline has the right to do any thing they please as a condition of boarding their flight, but the US Government has NOTHING TO SAY about the issue, and is restricted, by the Constitution of the United States, from conducting any search or seizure without probable cause and due process.

If the airlines were running the security gate I would have no problem at all with it, but it is not the airlines, it is the Government, and the Constitution limits what the Government can do.

Got it now?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[TCassidy]

So which one do we give up next, so that we can feel a little safer? At what point do we decide not to live in fear any more?

When the 1st Amendment goes the way of the 2nd and 4th, and Targus is told that his church must only preach on certain subjects but is forbidden to preach on other subjects, and that every sermon must be submitted to the censors prior to it being preached, maybe then he will begin to understand what we are so rapidly losing in this country.

I am an old man. I probably don't have much longer to live. But I spent my time, shed my blood, and gave my pound of flesh in the interests of freedom and justice. It saddens me to see people like targus dismissing the sacrifices of so many as being worthless and willingly giving away the very rights so many fought so hard to defend.

My only regret is that my grandchildren have to grow up in a world like the one targus is advocating. Total socialism. Total government control. No freedom of speech. No freedom of religion. No freedom of self protection. No freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.

It is a sad day in America that so many Americans have stopped being "We the People" and have become "We the Sheeple." As lambs led to the slaughter, they remain voiceless regarding the terrible violations of the former rights of formerly free citizens.

 

[Don]

Don, thanks for your service.

If there is no right to fly - how has there been an erosion of rights if one can simply choose to travel by other means if one does not want to be searched?

Are you against luggage scanning?

If not why not?

Isn't that a violation of your rights against searches?

When can the FBI legally search your luggage, or you? When can the police legally search your luggage, or you?
Answer: Upon probable cause.

When can the TSA, another government agency, search your luggage or you?
Answer: Before you enter a concourse that might give you access to an airplane.

What's the difference between these two? The FBI and the police either have to ask your permission to be searched, or be able to legally proclaim a perceived threat. TSA says that because you bought an airline ticket, you've consented to be searched; there's no actual permission given, nor any perceived threat, on your part.

It's not as easy as saying "use another means." As I pointed out in another thread some months back, what about the people who live in Hawaii? How are they supposed to travel to/from the mainland? They don't have free access to travel between states.

 

[mandym]

When can the FBI legally search your luggage, or you? When can the police legally search your luggage, or you?
Answer: Upon probable cause.

When can the TSA, another government agency, search your luggage or you?
Answer: Before you enter a concourse that might give you access to an airplane.

That is only when you have no say. When you have the option to fly or not to fly and you agree to fly then you are agreeing to a search. If you do not agree them you cannot fly.

 

[TCassidy]

That is only when you have no say. When you have the option to fly or not to fly and you agree to fly then you are agreeing to a search.

No, I am not agreeing to the search. I will not surrender any enumerated Constitutional right!

If you do not agree them you cannot fly.

Who says? Show me in the Constitution of the United States where it says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Except when they fly then they have no rights whatsoever."

 

[Don]

...When you have the option to fly or not to fly....

So how do I get to Hawaii? Or back? What are my options?

 

[annsni]

So how do I get to Hawaii? Or back? What are my options?

Boat or private plane. Swimming could be a little rough....

 

[Salty]

The airline has the right to do any thing they please as a condition of boarding their flight,... ?

Not actually - suppose an airline said - No blacks, or no person over 300 pounds.... ect
Remember you said "any thing"

but the US Government has NOTHING TO SAY about the issue, and is restricted, by the Constitution of the United States, from conducting any search or seizure without probable cause and due process.

Governments job is to (reasonably) protect me from others - and that includes not just those flying on the plane, but anyone who could be harmed - ie a plane flying into a building - (like that would ever happen)

and why is it people only complain about the pre boarding searches.
Do you realize how many regulations the FAA has?

If the airlines were running the security gate I would have no problem at all with it, but it is not the airlines,

can you imagine the confusion there would be if each airline had its own security?

 

[TCassidy]

Not actually - suppose an airline said - No blacks, or no person over 300 pounds.... ect
Remember you said "any thing"

That's right. It is a private business and the plane is private property. They can make any rule they want. Of course if they make a rule regarding one of the protected people under USC 42 Section 1983 they are also free to defend themselves in a court of law.

Governments job is to (reasonably) protect me from others

No, it is not. The US Supreme Court ruled that not only is it not the government's job to protect you, but that even the police are under no obligation to protect any individual.

- and that includes not just those flying on the plane, but anyone who could be harmed - ie a plane flying into a building - (like that would ever happen)

How does robbing me of my civil rights make you any safer?

and why is it people only complain about the pre boarding searches.
Do you realize how many regulations the FAA has?

Completely different issue. The states can set speed limits on all highways including federally funded highways, but no police officer has the right to stop me and search my car without probably cause or the issuance of a warrant.

can you imagine the confusion there would be if each airline had its own security?

You mean before 2003 when all airport screeners worked for the airlines and not the government?

Do you honestly think it is easier and with less confusion now than it was in 2000?

I used to fly over 100,000 miles per year. All TSA has done is violate people's rights and take cuticle scissors and knitting needles away 80 year old women.

How many air disasters or hijackings has TSA prevented? (I will give you a hint, it is a number between +1 and -1 - yeah, that's right, NONE!)

By the way, airports have the option to opt out of government TSA security and do it themselves. The following airports are just a few that have opted out of the TSA mess: Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport (STS); Dawson Community Airport (GDV); Frank Wiley Field (MLS); Greater Rochester International (ROC); Havre City County Airport (HVR); Jackson Hole (JAC); Joe Foss Field (FSD); Kansas City International (MCI); Key West International Airport (EYW); L.M. Clayton Airport (OLF); Lewistown Municipal Airport (LWT); Roswell International Air Center (ROW); San Francisco International (SFO); Sidney Richland Regional (SDY); Tupelo Regional (TUP); Wokal Field (GGW). One of the latest, and busiest is Sanford/Orlando. And, guess what. Their safety/security record is better than the TSA airports!

 

[freeatlast]

That is only when you have no say. When you have the option to fly or not to fly and you agree to fly then you are agreeing to a search. If you do not agree them you cannot fly.

:tonofbricks::BangHead:

Friend, you cannot say no and it not happen after you get to the airport! They then have what they claim is reasonable cause thinking you are hiding somehthing and you can be arrested and at that point you WILL be stripped searched if they decide that and in some jurisdictions they do cavity searches if they decide that! It is all up to them! All this violates the constitution! :BangHead:

 

[Salty]

:BangHead: :BangHead:

I have had enought of all this nonesense. You all complain about loosing (so-called) rights.

Other than complaining what else are you doing.

My suggestion - run for public office and change the laws

Until you all do that -

I am flying off into the sunset......

 

[Don]

Boat or private plane. Swimming could be a little rough....

Have you looked at the cost for private chartered planes (a quick search indicates a minimum of $1,000 per hour; depending on where you start, you can count on a minimum of five hours); is $5,000 for a one-way flight a realistic expectation for the average person?

The only boats you can get from the mainland to Hawaii are cruises, and take several days; is that a realistic expectation?

I've looked into this, because I expected such an answer; please tell me if you actually believe that these are really "options," or having some TSA agent pat down your 5-year old daughter's privates (and thus teaching her that it actually is okay for strangers to touch her in places they shouldn't, as long as they call it "security") is the better course of action.

 

[Don]

:BangHead: :BangHead:

I have had enought of all this nonesense. You all complain about loosing (so-called) rights.

Other than complaining what else are you doing.

My suggestion - run for public office and change the laws

Until you all do that -

I am flying off into the sunset......

Salty, hopefully you'll see this: I'm still researching some things, but it appears that there are constitutional rights that are violated by this. The Commerce clause turns out to only be a small piece; there's also the 10th amendment that presumes that a citizen of one state shall have all the rights of a citizen in another state; the Privileges or Immunities clause in the 14th amendment (which says "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"); as well as Supreme Court case law such as U.S. v. Guest 1966, Shapiro v. Thompson 1969, and Saenz v. Roe 1999.

The thing I'm still researching is why these haven't been brought up in legal challenges to the TSA. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[freeatlast]

1999.

The thing I'm still researching is why these haven't been brought up in legal challenges to the TSA. I'll let you know what I find out.

That has been my question also.