Baptism in the Spirit

[Moriah]

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Jonah 3:5-6 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

Those scriptures do not say, “The Nineveh’s are God’s people.” However, if the Nineveh’s continued to believe in God and do what He says, then I believe they are His people.

Do you think the Ninevites just believed God? Do you not know that they did not just sit there and believe? The king of Nineveh rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. He decreed all, man and beast, heard or flock not to let them eat or drink, but all to be covered with sackcloth. He said let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence, and that God might yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that they will not perish.

Does that sound to you like they only believed God? Does that sound like their faith worked together with their actions?

Do you see now how our faith has to work together with our actions?

In other threads, you argue against me and say we do not even have to be sorry for our sins when we want to be saved. What do you think about the king and all the people in that big city wearing sackcloth means? What do you think it means when they fasted? What do you think it means when the king ordered that they all give up their evil ways and their violence?

The king told them to all call urgently on God.

That is the way a person’s heart should be when they call on the name of the Lord to save them!

Like Enoch, Noah, Adam, did? Why should they become like Jews? That is your messed up theology.

Where did I say they should become like Jews? By the way, you say Jacob was a Jew, but not his father Abraham and his mother Sarah. How did that happen?

It is hard to believe that you say I have messed up beliefs for saying that all have to obey God.

Rahab the harlot was saved by believing in God, not by shedding the blood of an animal.

Rahab was not saved just by believing in God. Rahab was saved for what she did.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

Did you see that? Rahab was not killed with those who were DISOBEDIENT; she was not killed BECAUSE SHE WELCOMED THE SPIES.

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

The same is true for Abraham

James said Abraham’s faith worked TOGETHER with his actions, James 21-22.

James calls people like you foolish, and explains faith without deeds is dead.

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

DHK, why do you keep teaching that faith without deeds is the most important kind of faith in life? Why do you teach faith without deeds is not dead but rather the kind that saves?

and Ruth. Do you really study your Bible?

I sure do study my Bible, and love every single word of God.

When Ruth said your people will be my people and your God my God, do you not think she knew she was going to have to obey?

I never said that all Gentiles are saved! Where do you get that idea. Those who call upon the name of the Lord (Rom.10:13) shall be saved. You do believe the Bible don't you?

You said the Gentiles in the Old Testament were saved just as we are today. When the Bible says they were separate and without God and Christ in the world, and were brought near to God through Jesus’ shed blood, his flesh, the gospel. That is the Word of God!

By lineage and descent he still remained a Jew.

Explain how Jacob was a Jew but his dad Abraham and his mother Sarah were not Jews.

You don't seem to understand that. He may have been spiritually cut off, but not physically cut off. That is impossible.

Explain to me then what these scriptures mean:

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Exodus 4:24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met Moses and was about to kill him.

Why was God going to kill Moses? I know why, but I want to hear what you say.

Exodus 12:15 For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel.

Have you ever read this?

Exodus 12:19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born.

Even the alien will be cut off if he does not obey.

Exodus 30:33 Whoever makes perfume like it and whoever puts it on anyone other than a priest must be cut off from his people.’”

Exodus 30:38 Whoever makes any like it to enjoy its fragrance must be cut off from his people.”

Exodus 31:14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 7:21 If anyone touches something unclean—whether human uncleanness or an unclean animal or any unclean, detestable thing—and then eats any of the meat of the fellowship offering belonging to the LORD, that person must be cut off from his people.’”

Leviticus 7:25 Anyone who eats the fat of an animal from which an offering by fire may be made to the LORD must be cut off from his people.

Have you read the Bible? Did you not know that the Jews had to obey God or they would be cut off? There are more scriptures about being cut off, do you want me to show you more?

Why do you keep saying we only have to believe? Why do you say the Jews would only be cut off spiritually and not physically?

Can the Ethiopian change his skin?
Can the Jew change his? You think they can.

Do you think God cares about skin color?

 

[Moriah]

Did you?
Christ died for the sins of the world: yours as well as theirs. Adam, Enoch and Noah never went to the Temple and synagogues, and neither did the Ninevites. They weren't required to, but they were all saved by faith. Are you, Moriah, saved by faith or by works. If you are not saved by faith and faith alone, then perhaps you are not saved at all.

You teach that I am not saved because I believe we must believe and obey God; maybe you are the one not saved? Examine yourself…as Paul says to, what are you examining, do you know?

Adam sinned. There has been law ever since Adam. You misunderstand these verses.

I understand those scriptures. Adam sinned by disobeying God. You said we only have to believe in God. Do you want to rethink that?

I am not wrong.
The Jews obeyed God because they were saved, not in order to get saved.

Are you sure, you understand the Word of God?

Jesus says he remains in the Father’s love because he obeys.

You say the Jews obeyed the law God because they were saved, not in order to be saved…so, what does it mean to you to read they would be cut off for not obeying? What does it mean to you that God was going to kill Moses for not obeying?

Yes, but only after she was saved; only after she made that confession faith, while she was yet in Moab. You have demonstrated your confusion and lack of Bible knowledge.

So explain it to me, if Ruth did not obey God, would God still be her God?

1. She will always be a Gentile by her ethnicity.

Ethnicity comes in to the promises of the forefathers. It seems you think color of skin is the important thing here.

2. She converted to Judaism by her faith.

When she converted to Judaism, she had to do more than just believe.

3. Because she trusted God, she, a Gentile, became part of the ancestry of Christ.

Where does it say because she trusted God?

No, he was speaking to the Jews, and he said to the Jews:
Look, there is the Lamb of God, the Messiah, who will take away the sins of the world. Not just of the Jews, but of all the world, Gentiles included.

Gentiles were not yet included. Read about Peter’s vision. Read about how Jesus told his disciple not to go to the Gentiles. Read about how Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Read about how Jesus called a Canaanite woman the children’s dogs.

Salvation is not of works, as you are falsely teaching.

Salvation is of believing and obeying.

Your a teaching a religion that is no better than Hinduism or Islam.

Salvation, both in the OT and in the NT is by faith in God. It is by faith and faith alone. Romans 4:3--Abraham was saved by faith alone.
Eph.2:8,9 emphasizes that we are all saved by faith and faith alone. If you teach another gospel the Bible says that you are accursed.

Tell me DHK, what does it mean, “He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.”

What gospel are you teaching when you say we only have to believe and not obey? Sounds like another gospel to me.

 

[DHK]

Those scriptures do not say, “The Nineveh’s are God’s people.” However, if the Nineveh’s continued to believe in God and do what He says, then I believe they are His people.

Do you think the Ninevites just believed God? Do you not know that they did not just sit there and believe? The king of Nineveh rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. He decreed all, man and beast, heard or flock not to let them eat or drink, but all to be covered with sackcloth. He said let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence, and that God might yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that they will not perish.

Does that sound to you like they only believed God? Does that sound like their faith worked together with their actions?

Do you see now how our faith has to work together with our actions?

In other threads, you argue against me and say we do not even have to be sorry for our sins when we want to be saved. What do you think about the king and all the people in that big city wearing sackcloth means? What do you think it means when they fasted? What do you think it means when the king ordered that they all give up their evil ways and their violence?

The king told them to all call urgently on God.

That is the way a person’s heart should be when they call on the name of the Lord to save them!

I am glad that you are backing down and starting to agree with me. They didn't have to become Jews. They repented. They believed. They were saved by God's grace. They became God's children. End of story. They weren't Jews; but they were God's children by virtue of their faith in the God of Jonah.

Where did I say they should become like Jews? By the way, you say Jacob was a Jew, but not his father Abraham and his mother Sarah. How did that happen?

Where didn't you say they should become like Jews?
This is one of your many quotes:

If the Ninevites obeyed God’s laws, then they became like the Jews.

But they didn't become Jews, and they didn't obey Jewish laws, did they?
I never commented about Jacob? Are you trying to put words in my mouth--being deceitful about something I never said?

It is hard to believe that you say I have messed up beliefs for saying that all have to obey God.

Hindus believe they are saved by works.
Muslims believe they are saved by works.
If that is what you believe, then it is not Christianity.
Christianity teaches that one is saved by grace, through faith, not of works. Choose ye this day whom you will believe. If you will believe the Bible you will believe that salvation is by faith without works.

Rahab was not saved just by believing in God. Rahab was saved for what she did.

No, she obeyed because she was saved. She believed in Jehovah after hearing of his mighty works.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

Did you see that? Rahab was not killed with those who were DISOBEDIENT; she was not killed BECAUSE SHE WELCOMED THE SPIES.

No that is not what I see.
Here:
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
She did not perish with them that believed not.
Why? Because she believed.
She was saved because she believed. It is as simple as that. The works that she did, she did because she was saved, not in order to get saved.

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

You have been cohorting with the RCC on this one.
Have you joined the RCC? The teaching in James 2 is that works are a result of one's faith after they are saved.

James said Abraham’s faith worked TOGETHER with his actions, James 21-22.

That is the RCC view.

James calls people like you foolish, and explains faith without deeds is dead.

The board calls that a personal attack worthy of an infraction.

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

DHK, why do you keep teaching that faith without deeds is the most important kind of faith in life? Why do you teach faith without deeds is not dead but rather the kind that saves?

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. When that happens the Holy Spirit begins to change a person and works will follow. Never is a person saved by works. That position is heretical.

I sure do study my Bible, and love every single word of God.

When Ruth said your people will be my people and your God my God, do you not think she knew she was going to have to obey?

Then you would know that Ruth's confession was made before she ever became a convert to Judaism, and it was not accompanied with any works. It was by faith alone.

You said the Gentiles in the Old Testament were saved just as we are today. When the Bible says they were separate and without God and Christ in the world, and were brought near to God through Jesus’ shed blood, his flesh, the gospel. That is the Word of God!

I never said "all Gentiles were saved." I said Gentiles in the OT were saved in the same manner as we are, that is by faith.
That is what I have saying all along. Everyone, whether Jew or Gentile, OT or NT must be saved through the shed blood of Christ. Don't you read my posts?

Explain how Jacob was a Jew but his dad Abraham and his mother Sarah were not Jews.

Why would I have to? The Jews claimed Abraham as their father. The Lord promised to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. But he didn't have to keep all the laws did he? Works don't save.

Explain to me then what these scriptures mean:

The Scriptures were all about obedience or disobedience. They demonstrate that there is a consequence for sin, and nothing more.

Have you read the Bible? Did you not know that the Jews had to obey God or they would be cut off? There are more scriptures about being cut off, do you want me to show you more?

There are consequences to sin.
That doesn't change the fact that the person is still a Jew. You have no understanding of that do you?

Why do you keep saying we only have to believe? Why do you say the Jews would only be cut off spiritually and not physically?

That is what God requires.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
That is what the Bible teaches.

Do you think God cares about skin color?

Is he interested in your skin color; in the number of your hairs, in the color of your hair, or even if you have any, in your aches and pains, in your emotions, in your thoughts, etc., What do you think? Is your God interested in you??

I know that God is interested in me, and cares for me. Do you know the same about yourself?

 

[DHK]

You teach that I am not saved because I believe we must believe and obey God; maybe you are the one not saved? Examine yourself…as Paul says to, what are you examining, do you know?

Do I teach that. I teach that salvation is by grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ, and that it is not of works. If you believe that even one small deed is required for salvation, then I would question your salvation, because Jesus paid the entire price for our salvation. Our price is nil, nada, zero, zilch. There is nothing we can do. Not one work!

I understand those scriptures. Adam sinned by disobeying God. You said we only have to believe in God. Do you want to rethink that?

You rethink it:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--There are no works involved in salvation. It is by faith and faith alone.

Are you sure, you understand the Word of God?

Jesus says he remains in the Father’s love because he obeys.

NO, Jesus said:
"My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they shall never perish."
Once they are his sheep, they will always be his sheep and never perish.

You say the Jews obeyed the law God because they were saved, not in order to be saved…so, what does it mean to you to read they would be cut off for not obeying? What does it mean to you that God was going to kill Moses for not obeying?

God eventually did kill Moses for disobedience, and God himself buried him. But God did not send Moses to hell, he took him to heaven. That is what it means.

So explain it to me, if Ruth did not obey God, would God still be her God?

Ruth believed God, and because she believed God she obeyed God to the best of her ability. When she sinned or failed then she would have brought a sacrifice because of her sin. For no person is sinless.

Ethnicity comes in to the promises of the forefathers. It seems you think color of skin is the important thing here.

If you convert to Judaism, Moriah, what tribe could you claim to be from? You could not claim to be from any tribe because you don't have any lineage. Color does matter in the nation of Israel because it points to heritage, it points to the direct line of Christ in some matters. It points to what tribe one is from. Remember that in Revelation 7 there will be 12,000 Jews chosen from each tribe, 144,000 in all. Lineage or color is important.

When she converted to Judaism, she had to do more than just believe.

No it wasn't. Conversion was by faith and faith alone. Obedience came after conversion. Her confession or profession was still while she was in Moab. She hadn't even reached Judea yet.

Where does it say because she trusted God?

Her testimony was: "Your God shall be my God." That was her testimony, and that is when she was saved. Without such a testimony she could not have been in the ancestry of Christ.

Gentiles were not yet included. Read about Peter’s vision. Read about how Jesus told his disciple not to go to the Gentiles. Read about how Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Read about how Jesus called a Canaanite woman the children’s dogs.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
--So your view is that John is telling a lie here. He didn't mean what he said, when he said "takes away the sin of the world."
John was confused, you say.
I think you are.

Salvation is of believing and obeying.

That is a heresy. It is no different than the teaching of Islam or Hinduism. It is salvation by works. It is not what orthodox Christianity teaches or has ever taught.

Tell me DHK, what does it mean, “He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.”

What gospel are you teaching when you say we only have to believe and not obey? Sounds like another gospel to me.

If you deny the teaching of Romans 5:1 and Ephesians 2:8,9, I cannot help you. If you believe salvation is by works, then you need to look well to your own salvation. Salvation is not of works. It is by faith and faith alone.

 

[Moriah]

I am glad that you are backing down and starting to agree with me. They didn't have to become Jews. They repented. They believed. They were saved by God's grace. They became God's children. End of story. They weren't Jews; but they were God's children by virtue of their faith in the God of Jonah.

No way am I backing down or agreeing with you.

You say they only had to believe and do nothing else. You say anything else would be called saved by works and cause to be accursed.

You do not believe we have to be sorry for our sins to be saved.

We have to obey God. You could not point that out in the scriptures no matter how many times I asked you to show me how the Ninevites were saved.

Where didn't you say they should become like Jews?
This is one of your many quotes:

You have a hard time understanding, I already explained it, they had to become like Jews and obey. Did God continue to speak to the Ninevites, as He did to the Jews? Start answering my questions.

But they didn't become Jews, and they didn't obey Jewish laws, did they?
I never commented about Jacob?

You argue against me about the same stuff Biblicist does, so why don’t you correct him what he says about Jacob being a Jew but not Abraham?

Hindus believe they are saved by works.
Muslims believe they are saved by works.

They are not Christians, they did not go through Jesus.

If that is what you believe, then it is not Christianity.
Christianity teaches that one is saved by grace, through faith, not of works. Choose ye this day whom you will believe. If you will believe the Bible you will believe that salvation is by faith without works.

I believe God, not you. You do not preach what the Bible does.

You say faith without works is saving faith; James says that is dead faith. James says you are foolish.

No, she obeyed because she was saved. She believed in Jehovah after hearing of his mighty works.

You say she obeyed because she was saved, that is not what Paul says in Hebrews, and that is not what James says. How can you be shown scripture that simply and plainly tells you something but you pretend as if it is not there?

No that is not what I see.
Here:
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
She did not perish with them that believed not.
Why? Because she believed.
She was saved because she believed. It is as simple as that. The works that she did, she did because she was saved, not in order to get saved.

No, DHK, she was not saved for simply believing. She was saved because she had received the spies. Stop adding and subtracting from the Bible.

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
You have been cohorting with the RCC on this one.
Have you joined the RCC? The teaching in James 2 is that works are a result of one's faith after they are saved.

I quote James 2:25 to you and you say I have been “cohorting” with the RCC!
You sure get riled up at James 2:25. Here it is again.

James 2:25 n the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Are you sure you still want to say she only had to believe and do nothing to be saved?
She was considered righteous for what she did! That is the Word of God.

James said Abraham’s faith worked TOGETHER with his actions, James 21-22.
That is the RCC view.

That is the Word of God.

You are exposed.

James calls people like you foolish, and explains faith without deeds is dead.
The board calls that a personal attack worthy of an infraction.

Do what you have to do.

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

DHK, why do you keep teaching that faith without deeds is the most important kind of faith in life? Why do you teach faith without deeds is not dead but rather the kind that saves?
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. When that happens the Holy Spirit begins to change a person and works will follow. Never is a person saved by works. That position is heretical.

James is not a heretic.

You said the Gentiles in the Old Testament were saved just as we are today. When the Bible says they were separate and without God and Christ in the world, and were brought near to God through Jesus’ shed blood, his flesh, the gospel. That is the Word of God!
I never said "all Gentiles were saved." I said Gentiles in the OT were saved in the same manner as we are, that is by faith.

I know what you said. You speak nonsense.

That is what I have saying all along. Everyone, whether Jew or Gentile, OT or NT must be saved through the shed blood of Christ. Don't you read my posts?

Gentiles were separate from God, and Christ, see Ephesians 2:12.

The Lord promised to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. But he didn't have to keep all the laws did he? Works don't save.

The Lord promised Abraham would be the father of many nations---WOULD BE. You claim the Gentiles were included from all time. The word of God says they were separate, but brought near by the shed blood of Jesus, his flesh, the gospel.

The Scriptures were all about obedience or disobedience. They demonstrate that there is a consequence for sin, and nothing more.

God cuts off people for disobedience. You act as if it is nothing. There is a consequence for sin, but you keep preaching we only have to believe. You preach unreasonable nonsense.

There are consequences to sin.
That doesn't change the fact that the person is still a Jew. You have no understanding of that do you?

It is a big deal to be cut off, for a Jew or anyone.

That is what God requires.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works.

To stop sinning is not a work. It is a work to get circumcised, external washings, observance of special day, to give sin offerings, etc.

You misunderstand Paul to your destruction.

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
That is what the Bible teaches.

We are not justified by circumcision, observing special days, etc.

How do you eat of Jesus if you do not obey?

Is he interested in your skin color; in the number of your hairs, in the color of your hair, or even if you have any, in your aches and pains, in your emotions, in your thoughts, etc., What do you think? Is your God interested in you??

I knew you would have a hard time answering the question.

I know that God is interested in me, and cares for me. Do you know the same about yourself?

Jesus says to obey if you want to remain in God’s love. Jesus says he remains in His Father’s love because he obeys the Father. What say you about you?

 

[Moriah]

Moriah said: Jesus says he remains in the Father’s love because he obeys.

DHK said: NO, Jesus said:
"My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they shall never perish."
Once they are his sheep, they will always be his sheep and never perish.

You are a liar. You said, "NO," that Jesus did not say that. Jesus did say that!

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love, John 15:10.

 

[convicted1]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

Brother, this is how I have come to my conclusion concerning the baptism of/by the Spirit.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I think here shows that there is only one baptism(not the water either), but the baptism of/by the Spirit. Without this baptism, the water is only a moot point. It first takes this baptism before the water counts towards anything.


1 Cor. 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.


Now, when we are baptized into Christ, we are placed in Him, in the Church, His body, of which He is the Head. We are placed in Him, and we make up many members. We are given life because we are placed in Him, and not given life and then placed in Christ. We are either in Christ(spirtiually alive), or we are not(seperated from Christ due to our sins, and are spiritually dead). We do not have life until we eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood(spiritually speaking that is).

John 6
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.



So you see, Brother, that I see it like this. We partake of His flesh and blood(spiritually speaking), and we are placed in Christ and given life. We don't get life and then be placed in Christ. This is how I see it, and I am sure you will not agree. i just pray that you take my post as a civil one.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You are a liar. You said, "NO," that Jesus did not say that. Jesus did say that!

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love, John 15:10.

Jesus also said

Luke 18:22 (KJV) Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Tell us, Moriah... have you sold all that you have? Jesus said that is important if you want treasures in heaven, you know?

Something tells me you haven't.

 

[Moriah]

Jesus also said

Luke 18:22 (KJV) Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Tell us, Moriah... have you sold all that you have? Jesus said that is important if you want treasures in heaven, you know?

Something tells me you haven't.

You are trying to discount Jesus’ words just because you do not understand them!

 

[Moriah]

Jesus also said

Luke 18:22 (KJV) Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Tell us, Moriah... have you sold all that you have? Jesus said that is important if you want treasures in heaven, you know?

Something tells me you haven't.

Jesus did not tell me to sell everything I had; I am not the wealthy person in the Bible Jesus was speaking to. Jesus saved me. I have had very little at times, and I have had a little more at times. What I do have, Jesus knows nothing is more important to me than being saved. Jesus knew the rich man did not feel that way.
Jesus was on earth, and the rich man did not want to give up all he had to follow him. You do not understand that for a reason. You do not have understanding.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Jesus did not tell me to sell everything I had; I am not the wealthy person in the Bible Jesus was speaking to. Jesus saved me. I have had very little at times, and I have had a little more at times. What I do have, Jesus knows nothing is more important to me than being saved. Jesus knew the rich man did not feel that way.
Jesus was on earth, and the rich man did not want to give up all he had to follow him. You do not understand that for a reason. You do not have understanding.

Nor did He tell you to obey Him to keep eternal life.

I understand the verse quite well. It is you who is lacking in understanding.... as DHK has pointed out time and again.

 

[The Biblicist]

Brother, this is how I have come to my conclusion concerning the baptism of/by the Spirit.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I understand how you come to your position but I disagree with your interpretation. The only baptism promised to the end of the age is water baptism in Matthew 28:19-20. The baptism in the Great Commission is the kind one man administers to another. Ephesians 4:1-15 deals with practical unity and growth in the local congregational body of Christ.

1 Cor. 12:12-14[/B]
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

You needed to keep reading until Paul made his application of this abstract teaching in verse 27 where it is applied to "YE" not "we" and the congregational body of Christ at Corinth.

Now, when we are baptized into Christ, we are placed in Him, in the Church, His body, of which He is the Head.

Water baptism does this but not baptism in the Spirit. Baptism in the Spirit has for its administrator Jesus Christ not the Spirit and for its element, The Spirit not Jesus Christ as you teach here.

John 6
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

You are accepting the RCC interpretation of this passage. This passage presents metaphors that define faith in Christ as partaking of him as you would partake of food and drink.

The baptism in the spirit is not SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ as that would teach all pre-Pentecost people were SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God and thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD.



[

So you see, Brother, that I see it like this. We partake of His flesh and blood(spiritually speaking), and we are placed in Christ and given life. We don't get life and then be placed in Christ. This is how I see it, and I am sure you will not agree. i just pray that you take my post as a civil one.[/B]

You would make a fine Roman Catholic but not a very good Christian.

 

[convicted1]

I understand how you come to your position but I disagree with your interpretation. The only baptism promised to the end of the age is water baptism in Matthew 28:19-20. The baptism in the Great Commission is the kind one man administers to another. Ephesians 4:1-15 deals with practical unity and growth in the local congregational body of Christ.




You needed to keep reading until Paul made his application of this abstract teaching in verse 27 where it is applied to "YE" not "we" and the congregational body of Christ at Corinth.




Water baptism does this but not baptism in the Spirit. Baptism in the Spirit has for its administrator Jesus Christ not the Spirit and for its element, The Spirit not Jesus Christ as you teach here.






You are accepting the RCC interpretation of this passage. This passage presents metaphors that define faith in Christ as partaking of him as you would partake of food and drink.

The baptism in the spirit is not SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ as that would teach all pre-Pentecost people were SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God and thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD.





You would make a fine Roman Catholic but not a very good Christian.

Was this last line necessary? That's a very low blow.

 

[The Biblicist]

Was this last line necessary? That's a very low blow.

Your intepretation of John 6 is supportive of the false interpretation of the RCC.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot possibly be defined or equated to SPIRITUAL UNION with God as that assigns all pre-Pentecost people to hell. The opposite of SPIRITUAL UNION is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION!

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot possibly be placement into the so-called mystical body of Christ as Christ is the Adaministrator of this baptism not the element. The element is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Moriah]

The only baptism promised to the end of the age is water baptism in Matthew 28:19-20.

Matthew 28:19 say, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Water baptism is symbolic; it is a pledge to God, for the remission of sins.
Read what Acts 8:16 says, “because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus”
Acts 8:16 shows that the Holy Spirit is to come fill individuals, when the scripture says “any of them,” we can see this fact.
So, one can see it is not as you say, that the only baptism promised is water baptism.

The baptism in the Great Commission is the kind one man administers to another. Ephesians 4:1-15 deals with practical unity and growth in the local congregational body of Christ.

With your statement here, you are advocating that just because someone attends a local church, that means they are saved and belong to the body of Christ. Does that sound realistic to you in this day, when people go to church for an hour or so once a week, then live the rest of the time like anyone else? The churches in the New Testament were commanded to expel people that would not stop their sinning. Do they do that nowadays? No.
Besides, with your logic, only people enrolled in YOUR church are saved, or else you are advocating all religions claiming to be Christian are saved people, and just getting membership saves them.

You needed to keep reading until Paul made his application of this abstract teaching in verse 27 where it is applied to "YE" not "we" and the congregational body of Christ at Corinth.

Do you think that Paul is teaching only those Corinthians are the body of Christ? What about the other churches, the church of the Ephesians, are they the body of Christ too? How many bodies of Christ are there to you? Your beliefs are illogical.

Water baptism does this but not baptism in the Spirit.

Again, water baptism is for the remission of sins, and a way for churches who, in error, enroll people as members of their religion.

Baptism in the Spirit has for its administrator Jesus Christ not the Spirit and for its element, The Spirit not Jesus Christ as you teach here.

The Lord is the Spirit, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

This passage presents metaphors that define faith in Christ as partaking of him as you would partake of food and drink.

To drink the blood of Jesus, and to eat his flesh, these are individual actions. We are to believe and obey Jesus’ words, and eating his flesh is obeying his word.

The baptism in the spirit is not SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ as that would teach all pre-Pentecost people were SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God and thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

The people before Pentecost had union with the Spirit when they worshipped God through the earthly tabernacle.
The people from the time of Pentecost on are in union with the Spirit when they receive the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit lives in them individually.

 

[Moriah]

Nor did He tell you to obey Him to keep eternal life.

I understand the verse quite well. It is you who is lacking in understanding.... as DHK has pointed out time and again.

Jesus does tell us that.

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love, John 15:10.

Are you in Jesus’ love? Then you are obeying Jesus’ commands. Do you want to remain in Jesus’ love? Then continue obeying Jesus’ commands.

 

[DHK]

Matthew 28:19 say, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Water baptism is symbolic; it is a pledge to God, for the remission of sins.

There is no pledge in baptism for the remission of sins. That is false.

Read what Acts 8:16 says, “because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus”
Acts 8:16 shows that the Holy Spirit is to come fill individuals, when the scripture says “any of them,” we can see this fact.
So, one can see it is not as you say, that the only baptism promised is water baptism.

In Acts 8, the Holy Spirit had not come upon the Gentiles yet. This was the first time that it had come upon a group outside of the Jews--the Samaritans. The Book of Acts is a transitional book.

Remember:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
--First in Jerusalem, and then in Judea, and now it has come to Samaria, just as it was commanded.

With your statement here, you are advocating that just because someone attends a local church, that means they are saved and belong to the body of Christ.

No, they belong to A body of Christ, that particular body of Christ. Paul was addressing the body of Christ at Corinth. He goes on to describe it. Every local church is a body of Christ, that is at least every local church that believes the Bible and is founded upon Christ.

Does that sound realistic to you in this day, when people go to church for an hour or so once a week, then live the rest of the time like anyone else?

Is that the way you live your Christian life. You can speak for yourself, but not for others.

The churches in the New Testament were commanded to expel people that would not stop their sinning. Do they do that nowadays? No.

Again, speak for yourself, not for others. Yes, it goes on today. It happens in those churches that I know of that believe the Bible and have Christ as its head.

Besides, with your logic, only people enrolled in YOUR church are saved, or else you are advocating all religions claiming to be Christian are saved people, and just getting membership saves them.

You have a convenient dichotomy, but it is a false dichotomy.
First the Bible never speaks of denominations, so it is not speaking of those churches.
Second, it is not speaking of all religions; it is speaking of those churches that are Bible-based evangelical churches that are founded on Christ.
Third, membership in a church doesn't save anyone. However in order to be a member in a church like ours one must be first saved, and then baptized.

Do you think that Paul is teaching only those Corinthians are the body of Christ? What about the other churches, the church of the Ephesians, are they the body of Christ too? How many bodies of Christ are there to you? Your beliefs are illogical.

Who was Paul writing to? Did you look; did you read it?

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1. He was writing to the saints, the believers.
2. He was writing to the believers that were in Corinth.
--It helps when you read your Bible. You can find out these answers for yourself.
--These Corinthians were called "a body of Christ."
The local church is "a body of Christ." Let me explain that for you.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Corinthians 12:27 υμεις δε εστε σωμα χριστου και μελη εκ μερους

The word soma is body. There is no article (the) that precedes it. The translators inserted it to make the sentence flow. It could just as easily and grammatically read:
"Now you are a body of Christ..."

This local church was a body of Christ. Each member contributed in a unique fashion. That is what Paul was explaining to them. They could not all be an eye.
1 Corinthians 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
--Each had its own particular gift and function in the body and should not be jealous of others.
Every local church is a body of Christ.

How many Christs are there, one may ask? Just one? Well if that is so, then I claim him, for I know he resides in me. He can't reside in you and not in me. Only one of us can claim him right? This is how ridiculous your argument looks like when you say "how many body of Christs can there be?" Every local church is a body of Christ, just as Christ is the head of every local church.

Again, water baptism is for the remission of sins, and a way for churches who, in error, enroll people as members of their religion.

You are spouting off Church of Christ doctrine. Is that what you are? Church of Christ?

The people from the time of Pentecost on are in union with the Spirit when they receive the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit lives in them individually.

That is the Spirit coming to indwell the believer, not the baptism of the Spirit.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Water Baptism does not bring remission of sin. The word "for" in Acts 2:38 does not mean 'so that you can get'... it means 'because of'

Acts 2:38 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The word 'remission' is the Greek word 'aphesis'. It means liberation, forgiveness, freedom, pardon. Peter was telling that crowd to repent, to turn to God. There is a comma after the word 'Repent' in that verse. That indicates a pause. Peter said "Turn to God." He continued by assuring them that in turning to God they would receive remission of sin. Their response because they had been pardoned for sin should be to be baptized.

Baptism doesn't remove sin in one's life.

 

[Moriah]

There is no pledge in baptism for the remission of sins. That is false.

You are wrong. Water baptism is a promise of a good conscience to God. See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Is that the way you live your Christian life. You can speak for yourself, but not for others.

Where did I say I lived my Christian life like that? YOU need to speak for yourself. You also need to stop bearing false witness. Where did I say I lived my Christian life like that?

Again, speak for yourself, not for others. Yes, it goes on today. It happens in those churches that I know of that believe the Bible and have Christ as its head.

Do you know what a hypocrite is? Stop telling me not to speak about topics when you speak about the very thing, not only that, you bear false witness, implying I live my Christian life as an unbeliever.

Not every church is so into their members. The Mormon Church excommunicates members for a couple of reasons. Are you claiming that makes them a true body of Christ?

You have a convenient dichotomy, but it is a false dichotomy.
First the Bible never speaks of denominations, so it is not speaking of those churches.
Second, it is not speaking of all religions; it is speaking of those churches that are Bible-based evangelical churches that are founded on Christ.
Third, membership in a church doesn't save anyone. However in order to be a member in a church like ours one must be first saved, and then baptized.

Being saved is an individual happening. Having the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit lives inside a true believer.

A person can be saved and have the Holy Spirit and never belong to a church on earth.

In addition, a person could belong to a church, get water baptized there, then not renew membership, nor attend there ever again, and it does not mean they do not have the Holy Spirit anymore.
I thought you did not believe someone could lose their salvation anyway.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1. He was writing to the saints, the believers.
2. He was writing to the believers that were in Corinth.
--It helps when you read your Bible. You can find out these answers for yourself.
--These Corinthians were called "a body of Christ."
The local church is "a body of Christ." Let me explain that for you.

It does not help a person to understand no matter how much they read the Bible. A person will not understand the Truth just by reading your Bible.

How many Christs are there, one may ask? Just one? Well if that is so, then I claim him, for I know he resides in me. He can't reside in you and not in me. Only one of us can claim him right? This is how ridiculous your argument looks like when you say "how many body of Christs can there be?" Every local church is a body of Christ, just as Christ is the head of every local church.

I am trying so hard to help you to understand. You think Christ resides in you, if you do not think he resides in me than it gives me doubts to what kind of spirit you have. Who says only one of us can claim him? I will learn how to pass these kinds of comments from you in the future. I do not see how someone who says some of the things as you do is serious about understanding.

You are spouting off Church of Christ doctrine. Is that what you are? Church of Christ?

I do not claim any denomination. I do not even claim a religion who claims they are nondenominational.

Baptism is symbolic. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Our old nature is to die and we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life” (live like Jesus).

Picture how baptism looks…the believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

Romans explain this perfectly.
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Water baptism is a promise of a good conscience to God. See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus does tell us that.

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love, John 15:10.

Are you in Jesus’ love? Then you are obeying Jesus’ commands. Do you want to remain in Jesus’ love? Then continue obeying Jesus’ commands.

jesus and the Apostles ALL stated that one believes in jesus , and at that moment are justified and born anew!

ALL the bible teaching on obeying Him refers to post salvation, NOT before!

ALL real Christians have both a new nature and the Holy Spirit, and they would be wanting to please God and obey him, but we still have the old nature and sin principle dwelling in us at war against that getting done...

See Apostle paul!