Would this be a fair statement?

[thatbrian]

Some of you may think you have scriptures to support Calvinism but it should be apparent that your interpretations of those scriptures are wrong and you shouldn't be working so hard at defending your doctrine.

God is a God of love, justice and even wrath but He is not someone who creates people to see them tormented for ever and ever with no end and no mercy as if that is somehow what a God of justice and wrath would actually do.

Yes. I'll take your word for it and ignore the likes of:

Jesus

The Apostle Paul

Augustine

Luther

Calvin

Whitfield

Spurgeon

 

[saved and sure]

Since the fact that people who believe as the Calvinists do, it would make sense that they could cite a verse for what they believe about those who God has chosen for eternal torment.

They continue to talk about the chosen for heaven but never those who are chosen for hell. I realize that all of us are destined for hell as unbelievers but when they teach God chooses some for heaven by default He chooses some for hell.

No.

You are mistaken.

Just because God purposes to select, from all that are already going to the lake of fire, those that are to be redeemed, does not mean that God "predestined" those to hell who by their own nature are walking that Broadway.

They are already condemned, ALL are already destined for hell. There is no "predetermination" made by God as to the fate of those who of their own will determine to destine themselves to the Lake of Fire. ALL are "condemned already," except of those He purposes for His glory and pleasure to redeem.[/QUOTE]
According to you, God has made the decision to chose those He is not choosing for heaven. They go to hell. You cannot have it both ways. If he chooses some for heaven, then by default God chooses some for hell.

 

[Rob_BW]

In the presentation as from the perspective of God, it is to establish the fate of those He chooses to redeem.

What you seem to present is that in some manner God pre-determined who would be saved and who would be lost.

Not true. Humankind were not born without sin, but in sin, condemned already.

God must determine from all that are lost those whom He redeems.

He does not determine all that are lost. They are condemned already. Lost already. God didn't condemn them, they store up wrath for themselves. (Romans 2:5)

So the destiny or fate of everyone born after the fall hinges on whether or not they were predestined to salvation, right?

And I'm not denying the just-ness of their condemnation, so we can shelve that, for brevity's sake.

 

[agedman]

God is a God of love, justice and even wrath but He is not someone who creates people to see them tormented for ever and ever with no end and no mercy as if that is somehow what a God of justice and wrath would actually do.

How dare you tell the potter what He can and cannot do!

You are the clay. He will make what He desires and use that vessel as He desires.

You do not know the opening chapters of Romans totally destroys your thinking?

Does not Romans 9 also refute your view?

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
​

God expressing enormous patience is WILLING to demonstrate HIS wrath and to make KNOWN His power, by allowing the ungodly to run their course to destruction.

Why?

To make "known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy that He prepared before hand."

See the difference?

The vessels "prepared before hand" are NOT those who willfully run to ruin.

 

[saved and sure]

How do suppose then one is saved?

I'm surprised that you would ask but I can tell you what the Philippian jailer was told:
Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[agedman]

According to you, God has made the decision to chose those He is not choosing for heaven. They go to hell. You cannot have it both ways. If he chooses some for heaven, then by default God chooses some for hell.

See, again you make it as if GOD CHOSE those for destruction.

He did not. ALL humankind choose destruction. That is not God's will, for He "desires that all come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2).

But they do not, because they will not. As John states, they loved darkness more than light. They hate light, push back and scheme against light.

God takes from all that already are destined for destruction (for all have sinned) and redeems those of His design and purpose.

 

[Rob_BW]

...God takes from all that already are destined for destruction...

Hey, that's what I was saying.

 

[saved and sure]

How dare you tell the potter what He can and cannot do!

You are the clay. He will make what He desires and use that vessel as He desires.

You do not know the opening chapters of Romans totally destroys your thinking?

Does not Romans 9 also refute your view?

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
​

First of all, who is Paul talking about and what kind of destruction is he talking about? Paul was talking about God bringing the plagues on the Egyptians and hardening Pharaoh's heart so he would chase them into the desert. Paul is telling the Jews that just like the Egyptians had no right to complain to God for being a part of God's plan of redemption, the Jews had no right to complain that God's blessings are now going to the Gentile Christians.

 

[saved and sure]

See, again you make it as if GOD CHOSE those for destruction.

He did not. ALL humankind choose destruction. That is not God's will, for He "desires that all come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2).

But they do not, because they will not. As John states, they loved darkness more than light. They hate light, push back and scheme against light.

God takes from all that already are destined for destruction (for all have sinned) and redeems those of His design and purpose.

You just made my case! "because they will not". According to your beliefs, they do not because they cannot.

 

[agedman]

So the destiny or fate of everyone born after the fall hinges on whether or not they were predestined to salvation, right?

And I'm not denying the just-ness of their condemnation, so we can shelve that, for brevity's sake.

Have not all sinned?

What wages does sin pay?

What is the ultimate destiny of all who do not believe? Is that God's choice?

What does the Scriptures present must take place that one believe?

Is that God's choice?

 

[agedman]

First of all, who is Paul talking about and what kind of destruction is he talking about? Paul was talking about God bringing the plagues on the Egyptians and hardening Pharaoh's heart so he would chase them into the desert. Paul is telling the Jews that just like the Egyptians had no right to complain to God for being a part of God's plan of redemption, the Jews had no right to complain that God's blessings are now going to the Gentile Christians.

I don't know who taught you that Roman's 9 was concerning Egyptians, but it isn't.

Perhaps you should re-read that section of Romans (start in 8 and read through 10) and verify what Paul is discussing.

 

[saved and sure]

Yes. I'll take your word for it and ignore the likes of:

Jesus

The Apostle Paul

Augustine

Luther

Calvin

Whitfield

Spurgeon

Then please show me the scripture stating that God chooses the people who are going to the lake of fire.

 

[Rob_BW]

Have not all sinned?

What wages does sin pay?

What is the ultimate destiny of all who do not believe? Is that God's choice?

What does the Scriptures present must take place that one believe?

Is that God's choice?

If I answer these questions, will you answer mine?

 

[TCassidy]

He is not someone who creates people to see them tormented for ever and ever with no end and no mercy as if that is somehow what a God of justice and wrath would actually do.

He didn't. Claiming such is a lie. All those in hell condemned themselves by choosing to sin.

Of course, you believe He created people to see them tormented for ever and ever with no end and no mercy because they refused to believe, and that is, according to you, what a God of justice and wrath would actually do.

Unless, of course, you deny hell or that unrepentant sinners go there for all eternity.

 

[agedman]

You just made my case! "because they will not". According to your beliefs, they do not because they cannot.

They do not because they cannot any more than you could.

NO one can. ALL have come short!

Somehow, I get the impression that you want to hold that people have some common ability to choose what is righteous.

That is not Scripture presentation.

There is NOT anyone righteous of their own volition. Not one! (Romans)

EVERYONE has turned away, ALL have gone their own way and not that of righteousness.

Not a single person has authority of their own will to gain God's attention and be redeemed.

John states, "NOT of the will of man..." (John 1)

 

[saved and sure]

I don't know who taught you that Roman's 9 was concerning Egyptians, but it isn't.

Perhaps you should re-read that section of Romans (start in 8 and read through 10) and verify what Paul is discussing.

"
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Cf Ex 33:19

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Cf Ex 9:16

 

[agedman]

If I answer these questions, will you answer mine?

Did I not answer yours?

Have I not presented to you answers or did I miss something?

 

[agedman]

"
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Cf Ex 33:19

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Cf Ex 9:16

Oh my!

I suppose you think that Hosea and Isaiah were also writing about Egypt?

Like I said, Go back and start in Romans 8 and read through to Romans 10.

Then try to excuse Romans 9 away as God not attending to the very argument you are making. That He is in some manner unfair.

 

[saved and sure]

They do not because they cannot any more than you could.

NO one can. ALL have come short!

Somehow, I get the impression that you want to hold that people have some common ability to choose what is righteous.

That is not Scripture presentation.

There is NOT anyone righteous of their own volition. Not one! (Romans)

EVERYONE has turned away, ALL have gone their own way and not that of righteousness.

Not a single person has authority of their own will to gain God's attention and be redeemed.

John states, "NOT of the will of man..." (John 1)

The scripture you used said "because they will not"! You are changing the Word of God to fit what you believe. it didn't say "cannot". In order to fit your beliefs you must change words.

 

[saved and sure]

Oh my!

I suppose you think that Hosea and Isaiah were also writing about Egypt?

Like I said, Go back and start in Romans 8 and read through to Romans 10.

Then try to excuse Romans 9 away as God not attending to the very argument you are making. That He is in some manner unfair.

Would you please read the verses again? Paul is not talking about spiritual and eternal destruction here. Comment on those verses don't avoid it by going to other verses