Would this be a fair statement?

[agedman]

The scripture you used said "because they will not"! You are changing the Word of God to fit what you believe. it didn't say "cannot". In order to fit your beliefs you must change words.

Perhaps an illustration:

I have a toothache.

I go to the dentist.

Bad tooth.

I refuse treatment, because "I will not" allow the tooth to be treated.

Therefore, the tooth "CANNOT" be saved.

Perhaps you need to show from Scriptures that one CAN be redeemed without any prior work of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Because it is abundantly clear that you have rejected what I have shown, so it is your turn to prove what you hold as valid.

 

[Rob_BW]

So the destiny or fate of everyone born after the fall hinges on whether or not they were predestined to salvation, right?

And I'm not denying the just-ness of their condemnation, so we can shelve that, for brevity's sake.

Did I not answer yours?

Have I not presented to you answers or did I miss something?

 

[saved and sure]

He didn't. Claiming such is a lie. All those in hell condemned themselves by choosing to sin.

I thought they had no choice. Now you say they choose to sin therefore they are sentenced to hell.

 

[agedman]

Would you please read the verses again? Paul is not talking about spiritual and eternal destruction here. Comment on those verses don't avoid it by going to other verses

Sorry, but there are no "stand alone" verses in the Scriptures.

But ALL Scriptures are given....

So, unless you can attain understanding of the CONTEXT then you argue only from a extremely limited and distorted view.

Again, Romans 8, 9, 10.

That puts the matter of which you disagree with me into the perspective that encompasses the whole panorama.

 

[TCassidy]

it didn't say "cannot"

"Neither can he know them." Neither can he. Not "neither will he." It clearly says "neither can he." That's bible!

Understand WHY he cannot. He nature, in open rebellion against God, won't allow him. His pride won't allow him.

 

[TCassidy]

I thought they had no choice.

You thought wrong.

Now you say they choose to sin therefore they are sentenced to hell.

They are condemned already, just as I have always said.

 

[saved and sure]

Perhaps an illustration:

I have a toothache.

I go to the dentist.

Bad tooth.

I refuse treatment, because "I will not" allow the tooth to be treated.

Therefore, the tooth "CANNOT" be saved.

Perhaps you need to show from Scriptures that one CAN be redeemed without any prior work of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Because it is abundantly clear that you have rejected what I have shown, so it is your turn to prove what you hold as valid.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life."

Whosoever means whosoever! It doesn't say the elect or the chosen or the predestined.

 

[saved and sure]

It appears clear that some on this thread jump to other scriptures when they cannot answer questions about a specific scripture.

 

[agedman]

After the fall, the destiny was not "hinged" but fixed. ALL have sinned - therefore ALL are destined.

Perhaps the failure is this matter called "time." Humankind live in a short span we call "time." But God does not. He dwells in eternity.

As He considers the events and happenings, He will use time as a tool, but He is not conformed to time.

This is why those who are unbelievers are "condemned already." The destiny is not "predetermined/pre-destined" but fixed already.


Using the example of an sailing vessel:
Pre-destined/ predetermined merely means that God in His own Sovereignty purposes some who were fitted for and destined to hell to be given new fittings and "pre-destined" instead for redemption.

In the arsenal of the Navy resides many (over a 1000 last I knew) vessels that are from previous use. They are not fitted for service, and may never be refitted for service. One day they will be taken and melted down or sunken to rot. However, occasionally a vessel is selected to be destined again for service (pre-destined) and refitted for that purpose.

 

[agedman]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life."

Whosoever means whosoever!

Certainly, God loves, He Gave, He desires that all come to repentance. There is nothing particularly given that discredits what I have presented.

The question isn't from God's view, but from humankind vantage point.

All have sinned. All have rejected the truth, All have gone their own way. There is NOT as single humankind that is righteous.

Therefore, what prevents the "who-so-ever" from belief?

Can the "who-so-ever" of their own volition violate the principles of Scripture that declare belief is not based upon the "will of man" to of there own self will, believe?

What is present in that person to believe (again READ Romans 8 - 10).

 

[Rob_BW]

After the fall, the destiny was not "hinged" but fixed. ALL have sinned - therefore ALL are destined.

Perhaps the failure is this matter called "time." Humankind live in a short span we call "time." But God does not. He dwells in eternity.

As He considers the events and happenings, He will use time as a tool, but He is not conformed to time.

This is why those who are unbelievers are "condemned already." The destiny is not "predetermined/pre-destined" but fixed already.


Using the example of an sailing vessel:
Pre-destined/ predetermined merely means that God in His own Sovereignty purposes some who were fitted for and destined to hell to be given new fittings and "pre-destined" instead for redemption.

In the arsenal of the Navy resides many (over a 1000 last I knew) vessels that are from previous use. They are not fitted for service, and may never be refitted for service. One day they will be taken and melted down or sunken to rot. However, occasionally a vessel is selected to be destined again for service (pre-destined) and refitted for that purpose.

Thank you for the replies. They were very edifying, even if it looks like I'll be staying a free agent (pun intended) on the great Cal-Arm divide.

 

[thatbrian]

Then please show me the scripture stating that God chooses the people who are going to the lake of fire.

You are the only person in this thread who has made such a claim, so you provide the text(s).

 

[agedman]

It appears clear that some on this thread jump to other scriptures when they cannot answer questions about a specific scripture.

Have you attended to the Scriptures?

Have you actually re-read Romans 8, 9, 10 to gather wisdom as to the context of Romans 9?

If you have, you would see how very wrong your thinking is on what Paul is presenting.

Romans 8 begins by stating the deliverance found in Christ,"There is no condemnation ..."
Paul continues to show how that the deliverance also is coupled with ultimate victory and that nothing of this life or that of the future will separate the believer from deliverance.

Paul goes on to illustrate that principle.

Now, I have started you down the road, but just as in Pilgrim's Progress, the pilgrim had to walk he was not carried.

Do the work of attending to the Scripture of Romans 8, 9, 10.

 

[thatbrian]

Regarding men's choices, men have "Free Moral Agency", but not "Free Will" (in the way that some imagine free will).

 

[agedman]

Thank you for the replies. They were very edifying, even if it looks like I'll be staying a free agent (pun intended) on the great Cal-Arm divide.

Oh, I have no problem with you being a "free agent" but, perhaps a greater resource might help.

I have suggested this source more as I have grown less acute in my ability, because it takes every possible angle of "free agent" thinking that both the Scriptures and that which the philosophies of the world have to offer and shows the value.

Mind you it is not something that is an easy read. In fact, it will take many days to work through. It is possibly one of the most scholarly texts and frankly most have very little ability to handle this level of content. It is merely 184 pages long.

In our interaction, I would consider you capable, and even desirous to know the strengths and weaknesses. At least that is what I perceive.

So, here is a link and again, it is not an easy read, but what one might read at the graduate level to gain understanding of the topic.

http://fourcornerministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Edwards-J-14.pdf​

There is an online "synopsis" of the work that culls it down to about 20 pages, but I'm not certain that it is that beneficial.

Anyway, give it a try.

If you gain victory in reading it, great. For the road is littered with those who had great intent to start and became too wearied in the journey.

 

[TCassidy]

Whosoever means whosoever! It doesn't say the elect or the chosen or the predestined.

We all know what John 3:16 says and we all believe it.

The very fact that you think it counters our position indicates you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

God, in this manner, loved the world (of mankind), that He gave His only begotten son, that anyone who believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Now, what part of that do you think we deny?

He loved the world: His sacrifice was sufficient for every person who ever lived or ever will live.

Whoever believes in Him. Every single person who believes the Gospel will be saved.

Not perish but have everlasting life. No person who is saved will ever be lost.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life."

Whosoever means whosoever! It doesn't say the elect or the chosen or the predestined.

Interesting ....whosoever is not in this verse....
6 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

 

[Rob_BW]

Oh, I have no problem with you being a "free agent" but, perhaps a greater resource might help.

I have suggested this source more as I have grown less acute in my ability, because it takes every possible angle of "free agent" thinking that both the Scriptures and that which the philosophies of the world have to offer and shows the value.

Mind you it is not something that is an easy read. In fact, it will take many days to work through. It is possibly one of the most scholarly texts and frankly most have very little ability to handle this level of content. It is merely 184 pages long.

In our interaction, I would consider you capable, and even desirous to know the strengths and weaknesses. At least that is what I perceive.

So, here is a link and again, it is not an easy read, but what one might read at the graduate level to gain understanding of the topic.

http://fourcornerministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Edwards-J-14.pdf​

There is an online "synopsis" of the work that culls it down to about 20 pages, but I'm not certain that it is that beneficial.

Anyway, give it a try.

If you gain victory in reading it, great. For the road is littered with those who had great intent to start and became too wearied in the journey.

Thank you for the kind words, and for you, I'll give it a try. I have a bit of time to kill, as I usually save most of my vacation time for Christmas.

 

[Yeshua1]

Incorrect.....

Who else has full free will? Whose will can cancel or equal that of the Lord?

 

[Revmitchell]

We all know what John 3:16 says and we all believe it.

The very fact that you think it counters our position indicates you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

God, in this manner, loved the world (of mankind), that He gave His only begotten son, that anyone who believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Now, what part of that do you think we deny?

He loved the world: His sacrifice was sufficient for every person who ever lived or ever will live.

Whoever believes in Him. Every single person who believes the Gospel will be saved.

Not perish but have everlasting life. No person who is saved will ever be lost.

Many Calvinists deny God loves the world. They insist God only loves the elect throughout the world. Which of course is not the same thing as loving the world.

The Calvinist version of John 3:16 is:

" God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son; that as a result of being elected you will be regenerated so you can believe with no other option available to you. You will have everlasting life that is imposed on you after your nature is changed you can do nothing else."