Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

[InTheLight]

There is no "deep spiritual level" to the gospel. It's simple and easy to understand.

The context of 1 Cor. 2 is not the gospel, it's the deep things of God.

The context of 1 Cor 2 is understanding "spiritual wisdom" (v. 6) the "hidden wisdom of God" (v. 7), the "deep things of God" (v. 10), and the "spiritual things the Holy Spirit teaches" (v. 13).

The natural man (unsaved man) does not understand these deeper things of God. But God has revealed the Gospel to everyone and the unsaved man CAN understand the Gospel.

Iconoclast rating this post of mine as "Funny".

Iconoclast has berated me in the past for not clarifying my beliefs. He has accused me of not using scripture. So here I am sincerely answering a question about my beliefs and using scripture, and Iconoclast finds it "Funny."

I guess I will have to consider increasing my killfile to two people.

 

[Reynolds]

There is never such thing as total depravity in scripture in scripture for Gentiles when you include the whole of scripture. Everyone who claims total depravity shows us Romans 3. When you begin to read Romans 3 you will notice it is about Jews not Gentiles so is Romans 9 about and for the Jews. Yet Gentiles like Calvinist apply it to them selves.Blindness has come to the Jew because of there rejection of Jesus Christ. Pay no attention to me after all I just showed you who total depravity is given to. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. You really should learn to consider all of scripture instead of just bits and pieces. No where is man ever declared unable to believe.
MB

This is getting good. Nowhere in Scripture is natural man declared unable to believe?
You really want to stay in the Jew/Gentile path? One verse takes care of that.

 

[Reformed1689]

Was He not drawn? If drawn He was chosen to come to Christ that is a given but because he could not do what Christ asked of him he just walked away. He had to be drawn because scripture says he cannot come unless the Father draws him.
MB

Nope, not drawn by the Father. Just asking questions. Christ said all that the Father draws comes to Him, and those Christ never casts out. He loses none that the Father gives to Him for his sheep.

 

[Reformed1689]

I guess I will have to consider increasing my killfile to two people.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nope, not drawn by the Father. Just asking questions. Christ said all that the Father draws comes to Him, and those Christ never casts out. He loses none that the Father gives to Him for his sheep.

If being drawn by the Father means just hearing, then all those in a Billy Graham Crusade were elect!

 

[MB]

If being drawn by the Father means just hearing, then all those in a Billy Graham Crusade were elect!

There are no elect Gentiles God never pronounced them as elect, but He did the Jews Explain that?

 

[MB]

This is getting good. Nowhere in Scripture is natural man declared unable to believe?
You really want to stay in the Jew/Gentile path? One verse takes care of that.

Romans 3 and 9 are both speaking to the Jews. I didn't say it Paul did. You just refuse to acknowledge it. You are rejecting what the scriptures say and adding what is said to the Jews to your self if you believe in an inability.
MB

 

[MB]

Nope, not drawn by the Father. Just asking questions. Christ said all that the Father draws comes to Him, and those Christ never casts out. He loses none that the Father gives to Him for his sheep.

The Bible clearly states no one can come to Him unless the Father draws Him. How is it then this rich man came to Christ? Do you think Christ lied when He told the rich man how to be saved? Christ said to Him.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
If he had he surely would have been saved but he didn't.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
I know you don't believe in invitations but this is a direct invitation. God does not lie Christ meant every word He said..
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

There are no elect Gentiles God never pronounced them as elect, but He did the Jews Explain that?

You are kidding right?

 

[Reformed1689]

The Bible clearly states no one can come to Him unless the Father draws Him. How is it then this rich man came to Christ? Do you think Christ lied when He told the rich man how to be saved? Christ said to Him.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
If he had he surely would have been saved but he didn't.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
I know you don't believe in invitations but this is a direct invitation. God does not lie Christ meant every word He said..
MB

All are invited. Every person is invited so that they are without excuse. But not every person desires or is able.

 

[Aaron]

Sanctimonious false humility typical Calvinism.

Quote any non-Calvinist here or anywhere who claims they save themselves. This is a strawman.

It doesn't matter what someone says. What matters is the effect. You can say you aren't saving yourself all you want, but if your salvation hinges upon something that you must do, then who's doing it?

[*snip presumptuous drivel*]

 

[Reynolds]

There are no elect Gentiles God never pronounced them as elect, but He did the Jews Explain that?

Nonsense like this make me want to become a Calvinist.

 

[Reformed1689]

Nonsense like this make me want to become a Calvinist.

You aren't that far away from one

 

[Reynolds]

You aren't that far away from one

Not real far.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not real far.

Well maybe we can get you to see the light someday

 

[atpollard]

Well maybe we can get you to see the light someday

I thought that was God’s job ... isn’t that sort of the whole point that makes us Calvinists?

 

[Reformed1689]

I thought that was God’s job ... isn’t that sort of the whole point that makes us Calvinists?

Stupid me

 

[atpollard]

But God has revealed the Gospel to everyone and the unsaved man CAN understand the Gospel.

No argument with the first part (worth having), but do you have a verse to support the quoted statement above?

1. The Gospel has been revealed to ALL.
2. ALL men have the power to understand it.

I offer the following verses as ones that immediately come to mind and cause me to question your statement.


[Mark 12:24 NASB] 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
[John 3:10 NASB] 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?


[Deuteronomy 29:4 NASB] 4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
[Matthew 11:15 NASB] 15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
[Mark 4:23 NASB] 23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."
[Romans 11:8 NASB] 8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[Luke 8:5-8 NASB, Luke 8:11-15 NASB] 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "Other [seed] fell on rocky [soil,] and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "Other [seed] fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8 "Other [seed] fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." ... 11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no [firm] root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The [seed] which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

 

[Reformed1689]

No argument with the first part (worth having), but do you have a verse to support the quoted statement above?

1. The Gospel has been revealed to ALL.
2. ALL men have the power to understand it.

I offer the following verses as ones that immediately come to mind and cause me to question your statement.


[Mark 12:24 NASB] 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
[John 3:10 NASB] 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?


[Deuteronomy 29:4 NASB] 4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
[Matthew 11:15 NASB] 15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
[Mark 4:23 NASB] 23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."
[Romans 11:8 NASB] 8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[Luke 8:5-8 NASB, Luke 8:11-15 NASB] 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "Other [seed] fell on rocky [soil,] and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "Other [seed] fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8 "Other [seed] fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." ... 11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no [firm] root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The [seed] which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

That's why I contend that everyone can understand, but the unsaved can only understand the showllow rudimentary levels of the Gospel.

 

[atpollard]

That's why I contend that everyone can understand, but the unsaved can only understand the showllow rudimentary levels of the Gospel.

Before I was saved, I heard the “gospel” over a dozen times and even read Genesis and Matthew for myself ... only to conclude that Christianity was utter nonsense. So I think that I disagree with both you and InTheLight. The unsaved can certainly understand the words and grasp the concept, but without God’s Grace it really is just “foolishness” to a fallen man. [In my personal experience.]