Pelagianism

[AustinC]

I quote scripture:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

Do you, or do you not, teach justification by faith plus works?

 

[JesusFan]

Chill brother, I never accused you of accusing me of RCC teaching.

Have you not stated that we are not saved and justified by faith alone, that its also of works?

 

[JesusFan]

I quote scripture:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

Your take on that passage is what Rome teaches though!

 

[kyredneck]

Have you not stated that we are not saved and justified by faith alone, that its also of works?

See post #20.

Your take on that passage is what Rome teaches though!

So? If that's so (I know nothing about RCC teaching), "Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then".

 

[kyredneck]

Do you, or do you not, teach justification by faith plus works?

Have you, or have you not, added to the gospel with your CALVINIST MANTRA "justification by faith alone"? For the umpteenth time, produce one, just one teeny tiny itsy bitsy passage from scripture that supports your CALVINIST TEACHING of "justification by faith alone".

 

[AustinC]

Have you, or have you not, added to the gospel with your mantra "justification by faith alone"? For the umpteenth time, produce one, just one teeny tiny itsy bitsy passage from scripture that supports your CALVINIST TEACHING of "justification by faith alone".

Please answer my question: Do you, or do you not teach justification by faith plus works?

 

[Van]

Much of modern day Christianity holds to semi Pel viewpoint, as we must "co assist" God to save us!

This false claim is posted, but without any understanding of the doctrine. It is just a name falselogy advocates use to hide false doctrine by shifting the subject.

 

[kyredneck]

Please answer my question: Do you, or do you not teach justification by faith plus works?

Please answer my question, "Have you, or have you not, added to the gospel with your CALVINIST MANTRA "justification by faith alone"?"

 

[Van]

Does anyone accept justification by Christ alone.

 

[JamesL]

On another thread I stated that aborted children are sinners by nature and face the wages of sin. But at the same time I do not believe aborted children have committed sins (sinful acts).

@AustinC believes this is the heresy called Pelagianism.

Having studied theology I know it is not, but wanted to give him a forum to learn. But I have studied this in depth as a graduate student and have no interest in studying it again with @AustinC .

I will say that the belief all men ate sinners by nature negates Pelagianism. The belief that we cannot, apart from God, do any true hood negates Pelaganism. The belief that no man can come to God apart from God drawing them negates Pelagianism.

I think @AustinC knows this and just uses "Pelagianism" as a type 9f insult without meaning towards anybody who challenges his views. I belief it is evidence that he cannot defend his faith, as he resorts to empty insults.


Here is one link for the interested:


Pelagianism | Description, History, & Beliefs

If @AustinC thinks this is Pelagianism, Then he has a lot to learn and should refrain from making ignorant accusations

 

[kyredneck]

If @AustinC thinks

Lol, he's just like so many other Calvinist/Reformed puppets on this board, he gave up the effort of 'thinking' for the easier 'parroting' the dogma.

 

[AustinC]

Please answer my question, "Have you, or have you not, added to the gospel with your CALVINIST MANTRA "justification by faith alone"?"

I notice you refuse to answer my question.
Do you, or do you not, teach justification by faith plus works?

I asked, you avoided, and made this accusation about Calvinism while you balk at the fact that the RCC teaches justification by faith plus works.

Now, to address your complaint. You quote from Romans 2 as an attempt to create justification by works, yet that is not what Paul is arguing in Romans 2. Paul has shown in Romans 1 that if man is left to natural revelation alone, man will always rebel against God. He then says that God may give men over to their nature so that they are consumed by their own corruption. In chapter 2, Paul moves his argument to a back and forth review of Jews and Gentiles and how they view justification before God. Jews falsely thought that by doing the works of the law would justify them before God. Paul let's us know that Gentiles also tried to appease God but not by the law. In both cases they fall short so that no one can condemn the other. Both are guilty. In Romans 3 Paul lays out the fact that both Jew and Gentile are only justified before God because of the faith they have (been given) in Christ Jesus alone. Therefore the great saints of old, from Adam to the present, have been justified before God because of their faith, not because of their works. However, we know this truth about the gift of faith. Faith, that wonderful gift of God, gives believers the power and capacity to do good works. By its very essence, faith produces works. Therefore, faith that has no works is not faith at all, but only a claimed illusion.

Back to 2 Peter 2:1.

Here we see something similar. Just as claiming to have faith, but having no works is a false faith. So claiming to be a Christian, purchased by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, but then teaching a false gospel and denying Christ equals a false purchase. Peter is using the term "bought" in this fashion.

So, the Reformers we're correct. Rome was wrong.

On which side do you stand?

Are we justified by faith alone, or are we justified by faith plus works. Take your stand and live with which side you choose. I choose the Reformed position

 

[AustinC]

I notice you refuse to answer my question.
Do you, or do you not, teach justification by faith plus works?

I asked, you avoided, and made this accusation about Calvinism while you balk at the fact that the RCC teaches justification by faith plus works.

Now, to address your complaint. You quote from Romans 2 as an attempt to create justification by works, yet that is not what Paul is arguing in Romans 2. Paul has shown in Romans 1 that if man is left to natural revelation alone, man will always rebel against God. He then says that God may give men over to their nature so that they are consumed by their own corruption. In chapter 2, Paul moves his argument to a back and forth review of Jews and Gentiles and how they view justification before God. Jews falsely thought that by doing the works of the law would justify them before God. Paul let's us know that Gentiles also tried to appease God but not by the law. In both cases they fall short so that no one can condemn the other. Both are guilty. In Romans 3 Paul lays out the fact that both Jew and Gentile are only justified before God because of the faith they have (been given) in Christ Jesus alone. Therefore the great saints of old, from Adam to the present, have been justified before God because of their faith, not because of their works. However, we know this truth about the gift of faith. Faith, that wonderful gift of God, gives believers the power and capacity to do good works. By its very essence, faith produces works. Therefore, faith that has no works is not faith at all, but only a claimed illusion.

Back to 2 Peter 2:1.

Here we see something similar. Just as claiming to have faith, but having no works is a false faith. So claiming to be a Christian, purchased by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, but then teaching a false gospel and denying Christ equals a false purchase. Peter is using the term "bought" in this fashion.

So, the Reformers we're correct. Rome was wrong.

On which side do you stand?

Are we justified by faith alone, or are we justified by faith plus works. Take your stand and live with which side you choose. I choose the Reformed position

Whoops, mis-recalled which thread this was in. But, I stand by the connection to 2 Peter 2:1 so I won't edit what I wrote.

 

[atpollard]

Point of Clarification:
Is the purpose of this topic to discuss “Pelagianism” or to engage in a verbal Donnybrook with @AustinC or someone else that we want to pick a fight with?

 

[kyredneck]

I notice you refuse to answer my question.
Do you, or do you not, teach justification by faith plus works?

I answered that question in post #20, and you've yet to answer my question:

Have you, or have you not, added to the gospel with your CALVINIST MANTRA "justification by faith alone"? For the umpteenth time, produce one, just one teeny tiny itsy bitsy passage from scripture that supports your CALVINIST TEACHING of "justification by faith alone".

 

[kyredneck]

Now, to address your complaint. You quote from Romans 2 as an attempt to create justification by works, yet that is not what Paul is arguing in Romans 2. Paul has shown in Romans 1 that if man is left to natural revelation alone, man will always rebel against God. He then says that God may give men over to their nature so that they are consumed by their own corruption. In chapter 2, Paul moves his argument to a back and forth review of Jews and Gentiles and how they view justification before God. Jews falsely thought that by doing the works of the law would justify them before God. Paul let's us know that Gentiles also tried to appease God but not by the law. In both cases they fall short so that no one can condemn the other. Both are guilty. In Romans 3 Paul lays out the fact that both Jew and Gentile are only justified before God because of the faith they have (been given) in Christ Jesus alone. Therefore the great saints of old, from Adam to the present, have been justified before God because of their faith, not because of their works. However, we know this truth about the gift of faith. Faith, that wonderful gift of God, gives believers the power and capacity to do good works. By its very essence, faith produces works. Therefore, faith that has no works is not faith at all, but only a claimed illusion.

You have really gommed up Ro 2, or rather the status quo you're parroting has it all wrong, I question if you've ever had an original 'Bible thought' of your own, but you'll sure slander, accuse, malign, and insult those that do think on their own,

There are two 'hearts' that Paul is writing about in Ro 2.

The 'hard and impenitent' heart...:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:

...and the circumcised heart with the law written upon it:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God renders to each of these hearts according to (not because of) their works.

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

 

[AustinC]

I answered that question in post #20, and you've yet to answer my question:

Have you, or have you not, added to the gospel with your CALVINIST MANTRA "justification by faith alone"? For the umpteenth time, produce one, just one teeny tiny itsy bitsy passage from scripture that supports your CALVINIST TEACHING of "justification by faith alone".

Nope, you didn't. You quoted the Bible.
This is an easy question to answer.
Are we justified by faith plus works?

 

[kyredneck]

Nope, you didn't. You quoted the Bible.

Wow. That's something you've yet to do, you should follow the example, for instance, "produce one, just one teeny tiny itsy bitsy passage from scripture that supports your CALVINIST TEACHING of "justification by faith alone"". You can't produce it because it doesn't exist, you 'Calvinists' have literally added it to the gospel.

This is an easy question to answer.

Well, instead of huffing and puffing and making false accusations why not answer it? 'Quote some Bible' for a change.

Are we justified by faith plus works?

Prepare yourself ol' wise one, get ready, I'm going to "quote the Bible"...again:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

 

[AustinC]

Wow. That's something you've yet to do, you should follow the example, for instance, "produce one, just one teeny tiny itsy bitsy passage from scripture that supports your CALVINIST TEACHING of "justification by faith alone"". You can't produce it because it doesn't exist, you 'Calvinists' have literally added it to the gospel.



Well, instead of huffing and puffing and making false accusations why not answer it? 'Quote some Bible' for a change.



Prepare yourself ol' wise one, get ready, I'm going to "quote the Bible"...again:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

Kyred, I would quote the same verses you quoted and I would state exactly what I stated to you. The entire first 11 chapters of Romans is one big argument by Paul for justification by faith alone.
You reject that position, which all Reformed persons believe. That is your prerogative. What you need to be honest about is that you and the RCC hold a similar view of justification by faith plus works. This is similar to persons who speak of infants being without sin until they choose to sin having a similar position to Pelagius.

Now, please answer the question.

Is a person justified by faith plus works?

 

[JesusFan]

See post #20.



So? If that's so (I know nothing about RCC teaching), "Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then".

Are we justified by grace alone, and faith alone, or are good workes also factored in there by God?