1 Cor. 1:18-"are saved" or "are being saved"?

I am thankful fot the good Modern translations, as the Lord has used them to saved and to mature the redeemed, just as He has used the Kjv !

 

Without a doubt. It is one thing for men who are learned in the languages to translate under their own authority and ability and it is quite another for God to give us his words. The Japhetic nations have been given the words of God because they believe them and will preach them. This idea has biblical precedence. You may see it here.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you (Jews): but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people (Israel, in context), and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.

One can argue about who is meant by the gentiles but if Paul was the special apostle to the gentiles, one need only see where he went and to whom he ministered and they would begin to get a clue. He made 3 missionary journeys and he went west every time and returned to Antioch in Syria.Where are the great churches of history in Asia and Africa and the great missionary movements? What we got from Africa, a picture of the world, is Catholicism and one of her daughters, Calvinism.

Now, there is a broader definition for gentiles and I know that but that is a topic for another thread.What is important here is the fact that the world has held together for this long because God in his wisdom gave these nations the KJV bible and the freedom to preach it. Now that respect and admiration for it has waned we are on the verge of destruction and the wrath of God when Satan will have a free hand for a season. There is not this kind of power in the MV's.

I am thankful that able believers translate the bible into languages that do not have one, but those bibles, being helpful,will never be perfect.

 

I thought I was paying attention, sorry for being lax.

 

Amen! No problem. :Biggrin

 

But there are far too many of them, while 1000's of languages have no translation at all. Americans should be spending their support for such translations to reach the world with the Word of God.

 

For a translation to be perfect in any language, there must be a miracle like the original miracles of verbal inspiration. Miracles in the Bible are the only things that produce perfection. So when and where was the miracle that ostensibly produced a perfect KJV? I've never found such an event in history.

You've never translated, so you don't know what the KJV translators went through. I do. They translated, they did revisions and drafts, they proofread. But none of them recorded any miracles.

 

Well John of Japan. This is the gospel according to you. Where does it say the inspiration of the scriptures was a miracle? What they say is that the scriptures is the testimony of God. Who would you trust to write your testimony? Surely not a bunch of Greek speakers who agree on nothing.

1 Corinthians 2:1
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

God said he left us with his record of his Son.

1 John 5:9-13
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


You go back through the NT and read it and take note of how engaged the Father is on every page of the scriptures. If you get saved it will be because you believed the words of the Father before you believed in the son. Here is just one example and I will trust you to read the context.

Romans 4:20-25
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

What amazes me is you fellows seem to suggest that God somehow lost interest in preserving his word in a format that can divinely instruct us after John wrote the last book. He did not go to sleep because, if I can be somewhat crude here, he has skin in the game.

It seems to me the real miracle is that God has been able to preserve his words in spite of a formidable adversary with his own host of angels and false ministers who have opposed his truth for two thousand years. God has allowed it and here is why.


1 Corinthians 11:18-19
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

BTW here, John of Japan, we are discussing something we do not agree on but I would like to say that I am glad you are preaching the gospel in Japan and I am thankful you have plans to produce a bible in their language. I appreciate your sincerity that comes across in your posts and I believe in you. May the Lord Jesus be glorified by your efforts there.

 

You use the bogus, improper tactic of putting words in the mouths of others that they do not state. Other posters did not claim that God went to sleep or that God lost interest in His word. Your straw-man distortion or misrepresentation is wrong.

Perhaps you also attempt to put words in the mouth of God that He did not say. You make unproven, non-scriptural claims for the KJV that God did not state in Scripture.

 

REALLY??? God the Holy Spirit giving inspired and inerrant Scripture through humans is not a miracle???

With this position you agree with the liberals who say the original Scriptures were not inspired of God. I don' mean this as an insult, but merely to provide historical context for your position.

This is off topic.

This is off topic.

Don't know what you are talking about. I beliege in the providential preservation of Scripture in the original languagtes.

Exactly. The Scriptures have been preserved in the original languages for 2000 years (NT) and 3400 years (OT).

1

We served God in Japan for 33 years, and now I have the privilege of training future missionaries and Bible translators for the past 7 years.

Our new Japanese NT is done and being proofread; God willing it will be published this year. Over 86,000 of John and Romans have already been distrubuted.

 

What did he state about his eternal word that makes you so sure of your calling that you have staked your whole life on it? In the years I have known about you it has seen nothing but what God did not say. It seems to be a strange calling. I want to know what God said.

What bible do you read?

 

Is it your position that the minority texts are the exact words that were written by the 8 or 9 NT authors, who are titled apostles and prophets?

 

No, my position is Byzantine Priority.

However, I strongly oppose those who mock any Greek or Hebrew text and call UBS, Nestles, etc. "corrupt." It is impossible to corrupt the Word of God. Anyone who thinks humans can corrupt the Word of God doesn't know the Bible, which says, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). Words may be left out or added, but preachers do that when they preach and don't quote a verse correctly. Such actions cannot, CANNOT, corrupt the Word of God or dilute its awesome power.

P. S. And it is absolutely impossible for the KJV to be the exact words of the prophets and apostles, since it is in a different language.

 

Sometimes, but not often, I am blown away by what I read. This is one of those times. Obviously your translations do not have this.

2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Your stock is steadily decreasing in my view.

You say none can corrupt the word of God and Paul says many corrupt the word of God. Who should I believe?

 

The problem is that you do not know 1611 English. This is quite often the problem with 21st century Americans, who are very far removed from 17th century British English, which is what the KJV is in. (And yes, my translation--the Japanese Lifeline NT--does have this verse, as well as my English translation, the KJV.)

The KJV translated correctly. Here is the explanation.

In 1611 the English word "corrupt" did not only mean "make rotten," but could also mean "dilute." The Greek word it is translated from in this verse is kateluo (καπήλευω), which means, "literally, of a petty retail merchant who sells deceitfully hawk, peddle, be a huckster; figuratively in 2C 2.17 of (a) peddling the gospel message for personal gain or (b) adulterating the gospel (so-called from the tricks of hucksters)" (Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek NT). So, with your modern American English you missed the meaning of the KJV.

In Bible times, wine merchants used to dilute their product and sell it to unsuspecting buyers. So Paul is warning us not to use the Word of God to make money and especially not to cheat people. In obedience to this, we are allowing anyone who wants to, to print our Japanese NT translation.

However, the word in 1 Peter 1:23 is a different word that actually does mean to make something bad. The word "incorruptible" there is the Greek word aphthartos (ἄφθαρτος), meaning "not subject to decay or death immortal, incorruptible, imperishable; substantivally immortal character (1P 3.4)" (ibid.). So, you cannot hurt or destroy or corrupt (in modern American English) the Word of God.

Oh, no. I don't know how I'll be able to sleep at night! :eek:

No, no. Peter said the Word of God is incorruptible. Don't attribute Peter's words to me. Peter gave us God's Word saying that God's Word is incorruptible. That's the KJV. You don't even need to know 17th century British English or the Greek NT to read that.

 

I agree with you on that, as to me would be much better off to prune down to say Kjv/Nas/esv and Nkjv, and then focus on getting Bible out to those not having it yet!

 

No translation has ever been made that was perfect nor inspired, that would be reserved for the originals!

 

The Hebrew and Greek texts have the authority. final say, over any and all English translations!

 

Interesting that those holding to KJVO do not see that their position regarding inspiration of the KJVO deny it for the originals!

 

Paul & Peter were Hebrews. They knew the prophets of old had said the words like these.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

They knew, as I do, that diluting something that is very pure would corrupt it. In this case, adding any man's word to the pure word of God would corrupt it for the simple reason it would no longer be the word of God and especially it would no longer be pure. Common logic says one either has inspired words of God or he doesn't have the pure word of God at all.

I have noticed by comparing 1 Peter 1, a portion of which you referenced, the NkIV, the NIV, and the KJV, that the verb tenses are different and I understand the MV's did this because they do not understand God's systematic theology. This is a big deal. There are warnings about this in Rev 22. It is best to allow God to say what he wants to say and be careful to not pollute his word n purpose.

 

So, you don't believe the Word of God in Peter that the Word of God is incorruptible. Again, for historical reference, that is a position classical liberals take, doubting the very canon of Scripture. I have a Japanese translation by liberals that doubts that some of the epistles said in Scripture to be written by Paul are "allegedly by Paul."

Look, when the Bible says the Word of God is incorruptible, you should believe that. Don't come with your interpretations of other Scriptures that you think contradict Peter. Peter is correct--the Word of God cannot be corrupted. And the Word of God does not contradict itself. Leave your human logic out of it, and simply take Peter at his (and His) word.

Mankind cannot really damage the Word of God, because of its incredible power: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). The Hebrew OT and Greek NT are 100% pure.

No, the tenses are all the same, no matter which Greek text you use. I checked the Byzantine, UBS, and TR. The tense in all three is the Greek perfect tense, which has the verbal aspect of action being completed with the results continuing. The best example of this in Scripture is Jesus on the cross saying, "It is finished." Therefore any of the three translations you mentioned are correct, because it is extremely difficult to get the Greek perfect tense perfectly into English, which does not have the same tense. The KJV translates with present tenses, emphasizing the continuing results, but the NkIV (do you mean the NKJV?) and the NIV (the translation method of which I oppose) emphasize the past action of the perfect tense.

This is why God calls men like me to be Greek teachers, to help students who want to understand the Word of God. I hope this has helped you.