Define "having authority" for me. I have ask this question in several threads and to date have not received any definition. I am beginning to believe this is a work, like inerrancy, that people like to throw out, but for which there is no generally agreed upon definition.
I agree that the phrase "teach or exercise authority" is two different things, two different meanings. The word "or" makes a huge difference. If Paul has said, "teach and exercise authority" it would be a much stronger case for their meaing one and the same.
In the following sentence I mean no disrespect for anyone and especially for those on this BB that I really do not know. Now having said that I will say that I have known far too many pastors with feet of clay and I am far too much of a traditional Baptist to agree that a pastor has any authority, as I understand authority, over other Christians. The idea of having authority is a very appealing one, especially to those who like to control others, and I have seen pastors who were very proud of their "authority." To me the being proud negated any possibility of their having authority. Christ talked about being a servant, but not about having authority. The person who wants to be first must be last. I see that as being a servant with no authority, only service to God. To me only God has authority.
I appreciate you clam, rational discussion on this and I have noted it in other threads.
1 Timothy 2:12 should a woman teach a man
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by soninme, Aug 4, 2008.
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I would not want to be a member of a church that allowed women SS teachers teaching God's word on a regular basis to classes with adult men in them. I've even been uncomfortable when a woman faciliated the class discussion when the teacher was absent (this happened a couple of times in my SS class but since it was temporary, I lived with it). -
HEre's what's ironic. A few weeks ago we were having a discussion about evangelism and eating with people. You insisted that the lack of clarity of Scripture was in your favor. Here, you take something crystal clear against you and explain it away. It shows that for you the Bible is apparently just a tool from which you pick and choose to support your own preconceived beliefs.
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
An analogy ... realizing that all analogies break down at one point or another.
A man teaches a child ... God is our father ... and commands him to use that knowledge. The child goes to his sibling and teaches him/her the same thing. Can that child command his sibling to work for him. No for the father had commanded the child, not his sibling. -
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Pastor Larry, Annsni
Larry...
Although I am not a "Church of Christ" person (I am Baptist), this material is pretty good regarding the scriptures view of this topic...
http://www.christistheway.com/2007/20070901d.html
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Eph 5.23 reiterates this headship:
http://www.cbmw.org/
Also, I recommend this article by Ron Rhodes, a Christian author (and also friend of mine):
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Feminism.html
He addresses the larger issue of feminism but successfully refutes all the arguments for women teaching or pastoring (I know you reject the latter).
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This is an excerpt from the article by Ron Rhodes at http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Feminism.html:
I have explored at length, over several years, both the pros and cons of this issue, so I urge all those who think it' s okay for women to teach to carefully explore the biblical arguments against it, such as given in this very thoughtful article. We should not just give an opinion based on what we think is right but explore the biblical principles carefully. It takes time, but it's worth it as all bible study is profitable. :flower:
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I enjoy being on threads with you. -
To prove his point , Paul first of all goes to the creation of Adam and Eve .
Adam was formed first , then Eve .the very order of creation was significant. By creating man "FIRST" , God intended him to be the head , the one who would exercise direction, the one who would have authority. the fact that woman was created second means that she should be in submission to her husband . By basing his argument on the order of creation , Paul rules out any thought that this is a matter of "LOCAL" culture.
The second proof refers to the entrance of sin into the human race . instead of approaching Adam directly , the serpent went to Eve with his temptations and lies . According to God's intention , Eve should not have acted independantly . She should have gone to Adam and put the matter before him . Instead of that she allowed herself to be deceived and fell into transgression .
Just for the record an old pastor i once heard quoted this , "Scripture cant mean what it doesnt mean ". -
I can think of nothing more awful or embarrasing than a woman bossing a man and he's like "Yes dear, no dear, 3 bags full, dear" :type: After all, woman was created to be man's helpmeet, not to be a masculine feminist. -
Goldie,
We arent discussing any of those errors.
We are discussing women being teachers of the scriptures to a general audience.
The scriptures are clear that that is perfectly acceptable.
(btw, I DO believe that there are *specific times* when the leadership of the husband is scripturally warranted, but it has nothing to do with men only teaching the scriptures or women..supposedly...living their lives under the "authority" of their husbands.)
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And by saying all of the above, I'm not implying that women should be brain dead. Women should just respect the place God has given them. If you look at some of the Pentecostal women preachers - their husbands are wimps - it's like the woman bringing home the bacon and the man being the "wife" and playing the secondary role. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I never said women can't teach and I'd hope that those women who are gifted in this area WOULD teach. However there are restrictions on whom women can teach. Scripture is clear - a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. Period. -
1 Cor. 16:16
That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.
Rom. 16:3
Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Ro. 16:12
Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord.
Phil. 4:3
help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, -
Not sure what the point of that is Jerome. This thread is about women teachign and exercising authority over men in the church. Those verses have nothing to do with this topic.
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OK - I kind of think I know what you're saying with them now that I look at them again. In the Corinthians verse, Paul says to submit to those who work with him then the other verses show women who worked with Paul so Paul is saying to submit to these women too - is that correct?
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