I want to start this thread to respond to a couple posters who had responded to my posts and that thread was closed before I could respond.
To revmwc:
You stated this and used Eph. 2:1:
Where did I make Apostle Paul a liar? We were dead in transgressions and sins. Even while we were in that dead state, God made us alive by the quickening of His Spirit. This is being born again, or born from above. How can anybody prevent this birth from above? How? As I told you before, if you die and they perform CPR on you, and resuscitate you, how did you have any say in it? God's quickening power brings life. When life begins, it brings with it both faith and repentance. He gives us the ability to believe, and Jesus stated in John 6:29.
Dead people can not respond to it. It takes God quickening them, regenerating them, to make them able to respond to it. It is a cause and effect. God causes life and we respond accordingly.
Non, mon ami, non. Faith is produced from life, from the quickening power of the Spirit, from the regenerative power of God. God brings life to the dead, and faith and repentance follow.
You are correct here, mon ami.
Notice little sentence portions such as in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, and God made you alive with Christ, and lastly And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Every bit of this was by God's working upon man, not man cooperating with Him. God needs no help, no assistance from man as He is saving them. He knows what He is doing, He knows how to do it.
Again, mon ami, please show me where I made Apostle Paul a liar. Dead people can not, and will not, respond to the gospel. Go to your local funeral home and preach to them. They are dead naturally, just like sinners are dead spiritually. Why did Jesus say things like "Whoever has ears, let them hear"[Matt. 11:15 & 13:9], "Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.[Matt. 13:43], Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.'[Mark 4:9], "If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”[Mark 4:23], Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.” When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”[Luke 8:8], It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”[Luke 14:34], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.[Rev. 2:7], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.[Rev. 2:11], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.[Rev. 2:17], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.[Rev. 2:29], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.[Rev. 3:6], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.[Rev. 3:13], Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.[Rev. 3:22], and lastly, Whoever has ears, let them hear.[Rev. 13:9]
Now, if only those who have ears to hear with hear, why is that. They have been quickened to life, given a new heart, a new Spirit, and ears to hear with. That is why, mon ami, the dead can not respond to the gospel. They are spiritually dead, and the dead can hear nothing.
A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SovereignGrace, Jun 30, 2015.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK posted this in response to one of my posts:
This was what I had posted:
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Now DHK, now that I have a freshly minted thread, let me ask you again.
Have everybody from Christ's ascension heard the gospel before they died? If so, then how do you explain what YOU posted?
Here it is:
Here's the post of DHK's, if anyone wants to peruse it.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2238478&postcount=323 -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Actually, it was this post of revmwc's that I had not respond to. My apologies.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2238632&postcount=337 -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I will now respond to that last post directed towards me by revmwc:
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In an anonymous entry I have this written about the apostles:
Much of Eurasia had been evangelized by Paul (Greece, Italy, Asia Minor)
Many of the different nations represented on the Day of Pentecost were probably evangelized by those who had been saved that day.
Beyond the apostles were the early churches. Paul established over 100 churches in his three missionary journeys. They were missionary minded churches. As you have quoted Paul uses euphemisms such as "their word has gone out into all the world." But not all the world had been evangelized. All the world will never be evangelized. Evangelization will always be the duty, the obligation and responsibility of the believer so long as he lives.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
It is the responsibility for us to get the gospel out to all the world.
It is the responsibility for "all the world" to believe the gospel.
On that basis will they either go to heaven or hell.
We cannot neglect our duty nor pass it off or excuse it.
If one makes the premise that God has foreordained some to an eternity of eternal life, and then others he has ordained to an eternity of damnation, It is my opinion that that person assigns evil to God. God logically becomes the author of sin.
As it is, we have the obligation to succeed or fail in our mission to get the gospel out to the world. But many Christians are not pulling their weight, are they? -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Let me get to the marrow of the bone, okay?
Has everyone from Christ's ascension heard the gospel? A simple 'oui' or 'non' will suffice. Thanks. -
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
That shows you that John 12:32 does not mean all without exception will be drawn. John 6:45 shows how people are drawn and come to Christ. That shows that many will be in hell for their sins and not rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ. -
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
12:32, defined by 12:33 refers to his crucifixion. He knew how he would die--by being "lift up" on a cross. Jews, like Stephen, were normally stoned.
Here Christ says: "I will draw all men to myself." In John 6:44 the reference is to "the Father" drawing. If it is the same it means that those that are drawn are drawn indiscriminately. They will not only include Jews, (whom he was addressing), but also those from every tribe, language, and people.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
--He is referring to those that are not just Jews, but rather the Gentiles as well.
Jesus never said "all will be saved," not even implied nor inferred it.
But he did say they would be taught; they would hear; and those who learn would come to Him. Of course that takes faith, belief. Thus the "drawing" is based on faith, those that come to Christ on faith--not predestination.
In 6:44 the most a Calvinist can eisegete out of that is that: No man can believe on Jesus without divine help. But we all agree on that. No one has ever said anything different. Divine help is the "conviction of the Holy Spirit."
Thus the truth (with verse 45) is that everyone who listens to and learns from God will come to and believe in Jesus. In no way does this teach: God selects a few to eternal life and damns the rest to Hell. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.[Eph. 1:1-12]
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It is the penalty for the sin we have committed, a penalty we cannot pay.
But Christ came into this world and paid that penalty for me, you, and all mankind.
If I receive his payment I will not go to Hell; If I reject it, then I deserve to go to hell, for the penalty that has already been paid on my behalf, I have thrown away.
In order for salvation to be effective it must be efficacious. The gift must be actively received. As it must be received it can also be refused. The simple ability that God has (His omniscience) in knowing which way man will choose, in no way determines the outcome of who the elect are. His "foreknowledge" (knowing ahead of time) or omniscience has nothing to do with it. Being "of the elect" is based on "faith in Christ" or one's decision to trust Him. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Calvinist is not God.
How dare he presume that he knows what God has decreed or what the decrees of God are. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, or who hath been his counselor?" -
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is given in John 16:8
Joh 16:8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (ASV)
--The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin.
"Conviction" of the Spirit can be refused. I have seen it many many times on a regular basis. People under the conviction of sin, refusing to come to the truth, refusing Christ.
Stephen said:
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
We are commanded to resist the devil. Evan as we can resist the evil one, we can also resist the Holy One.
It is most certain that the quickening of the Spirit can be refused. There is no scripture to prove that it cannot.
As you say:
For As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, you could do nothing to respond to the gospel in your fallen state.
--First, I point out to you in the sermons of Spurgeon where he makes appeals and invitations to the unregenerate for them to respond to the gospel, and then tell you it is inconsistent with your theology you say it isn't.
Yet now, you draw back and say they cannot respond in their fallen state. You have contradicted yourself. Spurgeon was not so consistent as you say he was in appealing to the unregenerate to their ability to understand and believe.
Secondly, the definition of "dead" according to the average Calvinist is "as a corpse," which is the wrong analogy. No one is so spiritually dead that he is so unable that he cannot even choose bad. (That would be the analogy of the corpse.) The word "dead" in the Bible is used in the sense of "separated."
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the body is separated from the spirit that is physical death. Death is separation.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
--The rich man died; he was separated from God; separated from Abraham and the righteous; separated from his family and brothers; separated from everything good and sent to everlasting destruction. He is absolutely separated. That is what death is--separation.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
These Ephesians were not formerly dead corpses running around in the street--not even in a spiritual sense.
They were separated from God, not "dead" per se, but separated.
IOW, they needed to be reconciled to God, not "forced" by the Holy Spirit from a cardiac arrest back to the living. This is not a heart operation that he needs. It is a matter of reconciliation. Let's get away from allegory and get down to basic facts.
Man is separated from God. He needs reconciliation. We have the Word of God (means of reconciliation), and the command of Christ.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
--Our salvation happened when God reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
--God, was in Christ. He (on the cross) was reconciling the world (all the world) unto himself.
(YLT) how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
--Now we have this ministry of reconciliation. It is our duty to take this wonderful message to those separated from God ("dead") and show them how they can have "life" which comes through the living Word.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
--Thus we are ambassadors for Him.
Paul's prayer for the unsaved: "Be ye reconciled to God."
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You need to read up on the book of Isaiah. It is a most wonderful read, mon ami. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Why do the Reformers of today "neo-Calvinists" basically set them aside?
Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and that message will only be found in the Scriptures which alone is our only rule of faith and practice.
Today's Calvinist puts far too much emphasis on God's Sovereignty and the doctrine of Predestination than the rest of the doctrines of the Bible. He is unbalanced.
Your question: "Does all of this evil happening in the world...do you think He is just watching this playing out..." Then you say he knows this because...foretold the former...announced them...made them known...acted and they came to pass."
You seem to be attributing evil to God, making God the author of evil.
Certainly God knows what happens. That is what is called omniscience. He knows all things. He is God. But does He cause all things to happen? NO. Of course not. He has given man a will to choose. In his sovereignty He created man in his own image with a will and an ability to choose between good and evil. In this way we are not like the animals. We have been created differently to know good from evil.
According to Rom.2:14,15 the law of God is in our hearts. We have a conscience that speaks to us when we do wrong. We also accuse others and excuse ourselves. Man does absolutely know the difference between good and evil, and knows when he commits evil.
It is man's sin and man's responsibility; not God's. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
2.Sola Fide
3.Sola Gratia
4.Solus Christus
5.Soli Deo Gloria
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