If the Gospel is being presented, it is a church. No clergy is required. If a baptism is necessary, anyone can do that. When the Lord's supper is served, anyone can do that. No clergy necessary or required, period. Helwys affirmed that in the first Baptist confession.
A Smaller Church
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 24, 2013.
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I'm growing less and less fond of large churches. My church is at 400 or so and I'm thinking it is becoming too big. We started out at 100, 130. I thought this size was ideal. The problem I have with most local churches today is the fact they are run more like businesses. When more people come, more people give. What do we do with the money? We hire additional staff, upgrade equipment, buy larger properties, etc. When a family in need arises in the church the church asks for volunteers to help the family as the budget is full due to salaries and facilities. Is this the way Jesus designed the church? I hardly doubt it. I'm seriously beginning to think the great falling away is this corporate mindset of the local church. I'm so sick of it, I cannot be a cheerful giver of my resources, and its something I'm struggling with. When I see the pie chart of budget and 70% is shaded in for salaries, 25% facilities and 5% discipleship and ministries (not factual numbers, just for reference) I see something majorly wrong.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Web, we have had our differences & our arguments but always considered you a brother.... I will pray for you in seeking Gods path for you.
Blessings
as a sidenote the church in KY has a budget of $10 K per year for operating & maintenance....the pastor works as a teacher in a local school & draws no salary....yet they are fully Christian people who love one another & worship God in humility. -
EWF, how about starting out with a Bible study in your home and see what happens? I have heard of churches starting that way. Just a thought.
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I do not believe I could be comfortable in a church that had 100 or more members. People in such churches do not know each other well enough and cannot be family as is possible in a small church.
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I love small churches. -
I have always been a member of a church of less than a hundred, and am well acquainted with small churches and the problems they face. But they still have structure, organization, purpose, and are defined according to Biblical precept.
Not just anyone can baptize.
Not just anyone can oversee the Lord's Supper.
These are the two ordinances that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the local church to be remembered until he comes. Read 1Cor.11.
1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
--When YE (the church at Corinth) come together...
Then Paul goes on to give instructions about how to conduct the Lord's Supper. It was an ordinance given to the local church. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Maybe I should try the Mega United Methodist (you know, give us your heart, your mind & your wallets) or the myriad of PCUSA's that dot the landscape. What price is going to church vs worship? -
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First, when I was a young Christian, still unmarried, I had a career that left me totally isolated from any local church. I eventually left and relocated. But I was young and single. I was able to do that.
Second, I look at where I am now. I am married with grown children that have children of their own. I have a ministry among senior citizens. Some of those people never see daylight (unless it comes through their window). They are unable to go to a church of any kind. Because of their condition, they must stay there at an extended long term care facility. Before I went there the only other "clergy" that went there was Catholic and one other liberal Protestant. Now we hold services every week, but I can't call it a church. At least they get the gospel and teaching of the Word (those that want it).
We have another poster on this board. I haven't seen him for awhile. He is a Baptist, retired, older, and lives quite some distance from any Baptist Church. He attends an Anglican Church. Personally, coming from a Catholic background, I could never swallow that. But he says he is fed there. It is the only church in the area, and apparently the minister does teach the Word.
We do what we have to do, as the Lord directs us. -
Jesus conducted it.
The church is to celebrate it.
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It was given to the church. The church has structure and authority.
Now go and read the Pastoral epistles. Read the qualifications that Paul set down for a "bishop" the overseer of the church. It is not anyone that can administer the elements. The pastor oversees it, as he oversees all things. The church may have a congregational government, but the ordinances are given to the local church which has a pastor. As bishop (overseer), he directs what happens in the assembly. -
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"11. That though in respect of CHRIST, the Church is one (Ephesians 4:4) yet it consists of diverse particular congregations, even so many as there will be in the World, every congregation, though they are but two or three, have CHRIST given them, with all the means of their salvation (Matthew 18:20 ; Romans 8:32; 1 Corinthians 3:22). They are the Body of CHRIST
(1 Corinthians 12:27) and a whole Church (1 Corinthians 14:23). And therefore may, and should, when they come together, to Pray, Prophecy, break bread, and administer in all the holy ordinances, although as yet they have no Officers, or that their Officers should be in Prison, sick, or by any other means hindered from the Church (1 Peter 4:10 and 2:5)."
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Seems like some are not as Baptist as they claim, either that. or they need a lesson in Baptist history and theology.
For those "Baptists" who think a pastor is necessary for the administration of the ordinances, you have departed from historic Baptist and scriptural teaching.
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