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Featured Adam soul?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Some believe this shows Adam receiving a soul, instead of being a living being

    Gen 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    need to consider the

    1Co 15:45 KJV
    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    or in the YLT
    so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,

    The word "soul" in Gen 2:7 is "nephesh" is a person but might include the spiritual aspect of a person in translation. as in "The ship sank, all sous were lost"

    but in the Greek,

    ! Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    This soul is psyche which is not the Gr, for soul as pneuma the word used for quickening spirit or pneuma in the second part

    so the assertion that Adam received his soul in Gen is wrong. He became a living being.

    not Traducianism or Creationism (physical)
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    loDebar you won't get much response here.

    Have you actually had any formal education in Greek/Hebrew?
     
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    i agree, but this response is about the same as the atheists

    no formal training, I have to rely on the others translations and definitions

    It is hard to deny the teachings we have been given since childhood even though scripture plainly shows a difference
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You view formal education as a necessity to understanding the original languages?


    God bless.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You are partly right. The popular teaching is that men are body, spirit, and soul, when in fact man was created a body and spirit, and became a living soul.

    Two texts seem to justify that view:


    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    King James Version (KJV)

    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



    On this one I would suggest that the preservation of a spirit likely deals with the mental outlook (i.e., not having a spirit of fear) rather than the spirit of the individual, which is unquestionably preserved by God in salvation, whereas one's spirit in the sense of their attitudes are not necessarily preserved, for which we are to be ever vigilant about.

    "Soul" is properly used to speak of the individual themselves apart from the body (i.e., "souls in heaven though their bodies are in graves on the earth), so Paul's prayer is that we are preserved as ourselves but physically as well.

    This one...


    Hebrews 4:12
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



    ...is a little easier to understand, because it simply speaks, in my view, of the person (soul) being divided from their physical bodies. Men become liable for the Word of God when they hear it, so the concept presented is that of the Word of God causing death, which fits with this Biblical principle seen elsewhere.

    For example:


    Romans 7:9-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


    2 Corinthians
    3:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?



    God bless.
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It certainly doesn't hurt.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't really answer the question, and to be honest...

    ...formal education is, in my opinion, sometimes the worst thing that can happen to a Bible Student.

    The reason is because they are often indoctrinated into the System of Theology their school teaches, and instead of searching the Scriptures to find truth, they search the Scriptures to proof text their adopted System.


    God bless.
     
  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no , there is three soma, body. psyche spirit, and pnuema soul within or are a person

    you use these term s soma for body of an organism
    psyche for spirit or mind,, psychology thinking, doing math
    pnuema as pneumatic for soul, or spiritual matters , knowing God,,, admiring paintings
    We only feel a rock through soma, you use your psyche for abstract thinking, and pnuema of which we can know God or spiritual ideas .
    There is no cross knowledge, Our bodies cannot do math nor the Bible.

    The OT combines body and soul as one word
    The NT greek uses three
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In your opinion it doesn't answer it Darrel.
    However you asked,and I gave an answer which didn't satisfy you

    Thank you for that.

    Or in my opinion sometimes the best thing that can happen to a Bible Student..

    And what if they do actually prove it to be true?
     
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    loDebar - its the following

    Soma - Body - Earth perception
    Psuche - Soul - Self perception
    Pneuma - Spirit - God perception
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Now you contradict yourself:



    Body is also used of a spiritual entity...the Church.


    Well, do the math on these...


    Acts 27:37
    King James Version (KJV)

    37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.



    Genesis 12:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.



    Acts 7:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.




    What ineffable twaddle.

    ;)


    The soul (which refers to the person) is quite capable of knowing God:


    We use our brains, powered by our spirits, to do math, my friend.


    Please provide the Scripture that supports your theory.


    Only if you ignore how soul is used throughout the Bible and buy into modern, popular teaching.

    Scripture is much easier to understand when we properly understand the function of the words being employed.

    The "soul" refers to the person, regardless of their disposition (alive or dead). Adam was formed of the dust (elements) of the earth, God breathed into him the breath of life, and he became a living soul.

    Why do you contradict yourself in your own OP?

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The question is, "Do you think it is necessary to have formal training to understand the Word of God?"

    I did not imply that if men have formal training they could not, I am just trying to get a straight answer as to whether you think they must have formal training. You seem to deny any possible understanding in our friend LoDebar and imply you feel he has not had formal training.

    So a straight answer would be appreciated.


    No thanks needed, I am almost always honest with my antagonists.

    ;)


    I would agree with that. I would love the opportunity to take some formal training in the original languages, but because life has intervened in my schedule, am forced to rely on the work of those who have come before me.

    However, I am not a new student who would enter in without first having a background in Scripture, and would be, in my opinion, better prepared than many students coming under the influence of someone they view to be authoritative.


    not going to happen. There is simply no System of Theology that is not flawed by extreme doctrines which exclude the inclusion of relevant elements, which ironically, are the very doctrines the system usually seeks to deny.


    God bless.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes but not always with everyone. It depends on the individual.
    Hmm, What does "straight" imply and where is my answer crooked?
    In loDebar's case I questioned his formal training because he referred to the Greek/Hebrew but his references are/were not always accurate.

    OK

    Disagree somewhat.
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Thank you.


    Not crooked, lol, just not direct. It is a yes or no question. "It doesn't hurt" could be viewed as a no, I guess.


    Not going to argue with that, lol.


    Well, if you can point out a System that is inarguable and cannot be found to hold serious flaw, please let me know which one it is.


    God bless.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I'll need time to think about that one.
     
  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    you are being silly, no one said Adam did not have a soul. He just not get it when we think he did.

    You brains are not you spirit as you see with more than your eye.

    The soul in old English does include the body but not in the Greek from 1 Cor 15:45, two are different words.

    This is the scripture you are contradicting
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    In point of fact we have both said that in this thread, lol:

    I will not deny being silly, though.

    ;)


    He never "got one," lol.

    He became one:


    Genesis 2:7
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.




    You said...

    If our brain were to lose its functioning capabilities, we would cease to have the ability to do math. We could still do it in our spirit, but in view is man in his normal course of life.

    When a soul dies, and goes to heaven, they can do math, because the spirit is the soul still, even as the body and spirit is the soul. In view is the person themselves.


    What does the "Old English" have to do with anything? We do not interpret based on a translation, we interpret based on the original languages.

    If the Old English uses the word "letteth," do we use the culture that arose from, or today's culture, which have opposing meanings? We use neither, we look at the original, and clarify its meaning as it would have been in the culture it was given in, and in the context it was used. We would then clarify our understanding of "letting" and proceed to use that in our interpretive efforts.


    Not sure what you mean, because its obvious two different words are used, psychē and pneuma, soul and spirit:


    1 Corinthians 15:45
    King James Version (KJV)

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.



    "Man" is not used twice either, meaning, he doesn't say "The first man Adam and the last man Adam," he states the "...the first man Adam and the last Adam." Distinguishing between them thus.

    So I have no idea why you think this statement "Includes the body" in regards to "soul," because right here in this very verse is an affirmation of what I have been saying...

    ...Adam did not receive a soul he was made a soul.


    Sorry, but again I have shown you contradicting yourself, not to mention Scripture.

    So you are trying to say that Adam received a soul at a later time? When? And please find a Scripture to support it, because this one will not.


    God bless.
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Just to share information, when did Adam get his soul?

    I have found that one of the complexities humans attempt is in this master of discerning or separating soul and spirit. Only the Scriptures can effectively do that in action, but not in statements.

    So, when the OT and NT use soul, mind, body, spirit... it is more often in the terms of all inclusive aspects.

    For example: Fred is seen. How is Fred seen? In the style of writing, the picture of his body, the pattern of logic and reasoning, the reputation of his continence and forcefulness, ...

    So as in Scriptures, the use of soul, heart, ... may be not as separable as one might desire if they are attempting to discern a separate boundary defined essence of each.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Adam never "got a soul," he was made a soul.

    I will give one passage where we see the Lord confirm that when a man dies, his spirit (not his soul) separates from his physical body:


    Luke 24:36-39
    King James Version (KJV)

    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

    38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



    In view is that the disciples were still unbelieving, and regardless of being told that the Lord would rise again the Third Day, still believed Him to be dead. And it is not a soul they think they see, but a spirit. Not The Spirit, because they were as of yet unbelievers in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.


    God bless.
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Which is why I ask the question. I wasn’t in agreement, had no intention of arguing the point, but desired to gather understanding of IoDebar’s thinking.
     
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