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Featured Adam soul?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Ok gotcha.

    Perhaps I read into your statements something not there. One thing I will say is that when a "soul" is in view we cannot discount the body as being relevant, though we can equally say it is not necessary for the body to be relevant. There are souls in Heaven, for example, but that refers to persons in Heaven, rather than an immaterial aspect of man. They are spirits when they are separated from the body.


    God bless.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Does not Paul state that the earthy decays and the inner increases in strength (Corinthians)?

    Does he not say that the soul and spirit are finished with this form we are given a body of new substance?

    I am not certain we are in agreement if your thinking is the souls in eternity are not in a body?
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not relevant to whether man is a soul or has a soul.

    And you would have to be more specific, because I know of no relevant passage that implies that a "soul" increases in strength in a context we are discussing it (if that is what you are saying). We see the body contrasted with the spirit usually. For example, I found these in 1Corinthians:


    1 Corinthians 6:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


    1 Corinthians 7:34
    King James Version (KJV)

    34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.



    That too is not relevant to whether a man has a soul or is a soul. If you were talking about the "spiritual body" as contrasted with the earthy (1 Corinthians 15), then that is another topic of discussion altogether, because that deals with the glorified saint.

    And no, the "soul" is nowhere tied to the glorified form that I am aware of. Again, you would need to present which passage you are actually referring to.


    If by "eternity" you mean Heaven, then yes, I would dogmatically state there are souls (persons) in Heaven who are in spirit form and do not have a body. Calling them souls does not imply that the immaterial aspect of man is a soul, it is simply typical Biblical terminology when speaking of a person or persons. If you mean the Eternal State (Revelation 21-22), then no, because at that point we will have received our glorified forms.


    God bless.
     
  4. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    What name do you prefer to the general being in Heaven? God is spirit and is on the Throne

    1Co 15:44
    It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Spiritual evil ones
    Eph 6:12
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    Rom 8:9
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    Rev 4:2
    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    Has John a temporary body for Heaven? He was in the spirit, pnuema, same word as soul.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not sure if you are asking what Name I prefer for God, or if you are asking what name I prefer for those who have died and gone to be with God.

    If the former, my preference is God, formally, and Lord in general reference to Him.

    If the latter, then they are spirits. They are still souls, persons, but in regards to what they consist of they are spirits.

    The dead of the Old Testament were referred to as spirits:


    Hebrews 12:22-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



    The spirits of just men made perfect are distinguished from the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn (Christ).


    Has no bearing on the discussion, because this is speaking of the body we receive when we are glorified. That will take place at the Rapture. We will be made like Christ, as He was raised in glorified form, and our bodies will not be that which we began in, earthy, of this creation, but spiritual, everlasting, and shed of the weaknesses and corruption of our earthly bodies.

    And what the text states...


    1 Corinthians 15:39-44
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



    ...is that is is the flesh of man, not flesh created to house demons. That is the doctrine of cults.

    We see Paul speak of this body here as well...


    2 Corinthians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


    The green represents the earthly body, the blue is where he speaks about the body made by God, which as I said, is everlasting.

    What Paul is saying here is that he is desiring to be raptured, caught up. Not that he simply die and go to be with the Lord, but that he might have the body he had at the time changed to the body we have as our hope in Eternity.

    To be "unclothed" refers to dying and the spirit not having a body. Thus Paul is teaching that when we die, our spirits depart from the body. That is seen in Luke 24 as well, as shown earlier.


    Continued...
     
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    How are " the spirits of just men made perfect"? teleioō?

    How are spirits made complete, not bodies but spirits?

     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    How do you "spiritual evil ones" from these last two passages?

    Only the first speaks of those who are evil spirits.

    In the second, not being born again does not necessarily mean one is an "evil spirit," because every Old Testament Saint died not having been born again, and can be seen to have a right spirit with God.

    David pleads with God...


    Psalm 51:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.



    In the third, John, a born again believer, eternally indwelt by God, can not be deemed "an evil spirit."


    Pneuma is not the same word as soul, LoDebar.

    And how he went into Heaven is told us:


    Revelation 4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.



    Now look, if you keep this up, I am going to have to tell your Mom you have been playing with her computer again.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Great question, but, you are going to have to put on your thinking cap if you really want to know the answer.

    Hebrews teaches a Theme of Perfection, which in the Greek refers to completion, a bringing to an end, rather than our modern concept where we see something as flawless.

    Perfection refers primarily to making one complete in regards to what was incomplete in the Old Testament. Christ is the Author and Finisher (Completer) of our faith, and is the One Who makes Complete, and this through His Work.

    I will give you an example from the Tenth Chapter, because I think it may be easier to understand the concept there, and will not involve as much Scripture to consider, yet still get the point across:


    Hebrews 10:1-4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



    The point is this: the sacrifices offered through the Law could not cease, because they could not take away sin. Perfection is defined here as being remission of sins in totality, where the need for further sacrifice is no longer necessary.

    Now, lets look at what can make complete:


    Hebrews 10:10-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    We are made holy, set apart unto God...through the Offering of Jesus Christ of Himself, and this, once ("for all" is not in the original language, it is an insertion).

    So what we see in regards to "perfection" is that the sacrifices of the Law could not make one complete in regards to remission of sins, because the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins.

    But the offering of Christ of Himself makes those who have been sanctified by His offering complete in regards to remission of sins forever.

    That is why we do not continue to offer up sacrifice. The penalty for our sin has been paid in full.

    Now, going back to the verse in question...


    Hebrews 12:22-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



    ...this falls within the framework of the New Covenant (which is contrasted throughout the Book with the Covenant of Law), and is not the only place where we see that the Old Testament Saints were not made perfect:



    Hebrews 11:13
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


    Hebrews 11:39-40
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



    (Note: I am only notating one occurrence of teleioō above, see link to see the construction of the statement)

    The point of these two verses is to show that the Old Testament Saint received a good report through faith, but, they did not receive the Promises of God, and among those promises was His Promise to forgive sin completely:


    Hebrews 10:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



    Here we see again that remission of sin was the promise, and that because it is remission of sin in completion (perfection), there is no more offering for sin. And that is precisely what is stated in Hebrew 10:10-14.

    So we must not make the mistake of imposing a modern understanding of perfection into the text, but rely on what the original language actually conveyed.

    Look at the links, and you will see the definitions and Biblical usage for telos and its variants. There are other critical passages Perfection is found in, one of them the most debated passage (possibly) in all of Scripture, Hebrews 5:10-6:6.


    God bless.
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Pneuma is not the same word as soul, LoDebar


    it is the spiritual part of man, it is what we say as soul but not in Hebrew, but Greek
     
  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is the answer . The sinful soul is made who[e again by redemption
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    of what you say, what is your proof or evidence?

    Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    What about
    Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Did they have bodies?
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    i do not know what type of existence, The word "souls in Rev 6 9 is psyche not pnuema I do not know the significance
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Actually the words are

    Greek
    σωμα (soma) = flesh: both figurative and literally

    σαρξ (sarx) = body: the sum total of the literal flesh

    ψυχή (psuche) = soul: the conscious part of man, the will, intellect, and emotions

    πνεύμα = (pneuma) spirit: a small part of the Nature of God imparted to mankind which can be molded by the man for either good or evil.

    Hebrew
    נבלה (nebelah) = body

    נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh) = soul

    רוּחַ (ru'ahh) = spirit
     
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  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Thank you
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I quickly scanned this thread and did not find much.
    1) Folks disagree whether humans are two parts, physical and spiritual (with the soul being the core attributes of our spirit) or three parts, body, soul, and spirit. Did not see any explanation of what the soul has or does that the spirit does not have or do.

    2) Apparently the range of meanings of soul (i.e. a living soul being claimed to indicate something different from a living being) has not be laid out with clarity.

    3) Not sure how the asserted distinction affects our understanding of Adam or ourselves.
     
    #35 Van, Feb 27, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just a quick note on one of the assertions found in this thread:
    But the offering of Christ of Himself makes those who have been sanctified by His offering complete in regards to remission of sins forever.​

    Here we see that the word translated "sanctified" is being interpreted as meaning "made holy."

    But the offering did not make everyone holy, only those who God transferred into Christ, and therefore underwent the circumcision of Christ. After a person has been spiritually baptized into Christ, and undergone the washing of regeneration, being born anew, holy and blameless before God forever, even though they think and do sinful things, it is just as if they had not sinned . The once for all sacrifice covers their past, present and future sinful thoughts and deeds.
     
    #36 Van, Feb 27, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes the body and the soul working together are referred to as the soul the seat of self-consciousness.

    Luke 12
    16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
    17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
    18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
    19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
    20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

    Personally I follow "tripartite" - 3 elements of a human being - body, soul and spirit.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did not see any explanation of what the soul has or does that the spirit does not have or do.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Body: Earth-consciousness
    Soul: Self-consciousness
    Spirit: God-consciousness
     
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