Apparently you don't understand the logic of that position because that position denies that new birth is based upon the act of the will. Hence, in babies no act of will is necessary for their salvation but they can be saved (and are saved) by pure sovereign grace according to God's good pleasure based upon Christ's role as head of his people. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound by the sovereign decree to put them to death at that appointed time (heb. 10:28). So no action by their will to obtain salvation is consistent with our position but it is not consistent with your position.
On the other hand, the logical conclusion to free willism is when babies and children die before they can understand the gospel is they go to hell because they do not exercise free will to obtain salvation because your theory demands the exercise of free will in order to be saved and babies cannot do that. Not only a very evil doctrine but a false doctrine.
All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2019.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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MB -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Calvinism seems to say we are born sinners because of Adam the father of us all. Yet this verse says this is not so. The matter of death comes on all men but it is physical. Not spiritual. We are not sinners and there is no sin where there is no law. Law cannot be with babes because they can't even speak.or understand There fore a babe is sinless and there fore righteous.
MB -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1. Genes 1-3 is a prefallen context whereas Ezek is a post-fallen context
2. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE man/father whereas Ezek deals with all men/fathers
3. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE man as a REPRESENTATIVE for all mankind where as Ezek 18 does not deal with men in representative positions for anyone.
4. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE REPRESENTATIVE man for all mankind who is SINLESS while Ezek 18 deals with Fathers and children who are equally sinful and can't represent anyone but themselves.
5. Genesis 1-3 is dealing with the law in Genesis 2:17 whereas Ezek 18 is dealing with the Mosaicd Law covenant.
Finally, if you deny the Representative capacity of Adam in behalf of others, you must equally deny the representative capacity of Christ for others whereas Ezek 18 deals with sinful men who canont represent anyone else but are equally in need of a representative man that they might be saved. Hence, their equal sinfulness repudiates that they could possibly represent each other in any direction. Think about it. -
I do not deny Adam brought sin in to the world. and that death in the world is it's consequence. However that is a physical death not spiritual.. Man does not bear the sins of Adam. We die because death entered the world. If Adam had not sinned we would be in the garden and sinless. Adam would still be alive. Adam's sin had it's effect and that is physical death. This shows that when we sin it effects others as well.
MB -
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But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin.
Where?
In Romans 5:12?
What about here?
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What law (singular) what commandment (singular)?
Gal 4:4,5 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
What law were all under that brought the need for redemption? Were they born under that law?
BTW What law was Jesus the Christ born under, being born of woman? Matt 1:18 begins like this; Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:
Why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and or why, was Christ as of a lamb without blemish and without spot foreordained before the foundation of the world for, redemption. That is to willfully shed his precious blood?
That which is born of the flesh, flesh is. What does age of accountability have to do with anything? -
One more thought. How closely related are these?
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Physical death is the product of spiritual death as there would be no physical death unless one first suffers spiritual death. Do you understand what is spiritual death? It is spiritual separation from God. That means your spirit is cut off from God's Spirit. God IS life, God IS light, God IS love, and God IS holy and to be spiritual separated from God means you are spiritually dead, in spiritual darkness, having spiritual enmity toward God and are depraved. There is no other salvation than one salvation because there is no other problem then the fall which is the problem that salvation is designed to solve. There are only two kind of people from Adam - (1) Those IN ADAM versus those IN CHRIST; (1) Lost versus Saved; (3) Those who have Satan as the spiritual father versus those who have God has their spiritual Father; (4) Those in the kingdom of Satan and servants of Satan and those in the kingdom of God and servants of God. No third type of human exists or ever will exist. -
Is spiritual death a greater and more powerful death than physical death?
Here is what God told Adam whatever it means. מֹ֣ות תָּמ֔וּת
I'm not an expert on anything but I think it means, dying you will die.
Adam lived 930 years and he died. Adam is still dead. dying Adam died, just exactly like God had told him.
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Jesus lived about 34 years and he died. Just like Adam, dying he died. Is Jesus still dead, like Adam?
“he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:3,4
How many days was Christ dead, like Adam?
I think a great question is, why three days? Why not 2 or 1 or 6, why three? And no I do not know that either.
I think it has something to do with, death being cleansed, on the third gay, by washing of regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1. Spirit provides man other world/spirit world consciousness
2. Soul provides man with self consciousness
3. Body provides man with outer world consciousness
Animals have self-consciousness and outer world consciousness but they have no spirit world consciousness. You will never see an animal pray or hold a worship service with fellow "brethren" animals.
The spirit of man was created in direct connection (spiritual union) and communion with God who is spirit. God is LIFE, and God IS light; and God IS love and God IS holy. God is the spiritual source for all these communicable attributes. Sin separates God who is SPIRIT from man's spirit which is where God communes with man making worship possible (Jn. 4:22-24).
Death IS Separation from the life of God, from the light of God, from the love of God and from the holiness of God all of which have their sustaining source IN God.
God did not say "dying ye shall surely die" but he said "IN THE DAY" they ate "dying they shall surely die" meaning death had its beginning point "IN THE DAY" they sinned because it separated them from God producing in them spiritual death, darkness, enmity and depravity. All men die in Adam and you are not different then Adam with regard to sin and its effects. There are not two different kinds of sin problems but only one and that is described clearly in both the Old and New Testaments.
Adam, Eve, Abel and all those who received the same and only gospel of the prophets (Acts 10:43) are in heaven today BUT THEIR BODIES REMAIN IN THE GROUND. Why? Because BEFORE THE CROSS, BEFORE THE RESURRECTION Jesus not only demanded new birth (Jn. 3:3-11; Ezek.44:7-9) but said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Note, he described their present state "liveth" and "believeth" but they "shall NEVER die" even though their bodies does die! 1 Cor. 15 has to do with the "corruptible" body that lies in the grave or the unglorified bodies still living when Christ returns.
The saving application of his promised death and resurrection was applied by faith to all pre-cross saints not according to the "old" or "new" covenants but according to "the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) according to His eternal purpose of grace according to election. -
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
This verse shows we are spiritually alive until the Law which causes sin to be revived. In other words Our sin is accounted when we become aware of the Law and what the Law means. To say we are paying for Adams sin is wrong. We are born in sin but we are not born sinners as Calvinist on this board have claimed. Spiritual death is a metaphor. The proof of this is that no other apostle even mentioned it Neither did Christ
Those who lived before the Law were not held accountable for there sins because there was no Law. This could not have happened if men were spiritually died. According to Paul we are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. Our spirit isn't really dead but considered dead
The dead spirit term was used by Paul alone. I've looked intently for another witness and have not found one. If I'm wrong please show me I would be interested in seeing it.
IMO Calvinist claim we are literally dead because it fits there doctrine of having to pay for Adam sin. There is only one way we are effected for Adam's sin and that is the fact that Adam brought sin into the world. He was the first to sin. Because of this we all die physically . If he had not sinned we would all be living as long as it would take for sin and death to enter the world. Adam gave up eternal life when he sinned.
MB -
God spoke with Satan , All sinners are still responsible to God, Adam was a sinner. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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MB -
The position we have proposed are not Baptist. You believe in personal responsibility, a key provision of Baptist doctrine yet you blame Adam for your sin -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
:Frown
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