Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

[Reformed1689]

Again, a word game. There is no free choice. A decision is made by Sovereign God. He decides Choice A. His election to choice A is unconditional. His force drawing you to A is irresistable. There is no choice B or C allowed. You really contend you made a choice of your free will?
High Calvinists call the concept of free will, as it pertains to salvation, just what all Calvinists should calk it if they quit playng word games; folly and non-existent.

A hyper Cal would say there is no free will at all.

As I have always said, it depends on what you mean by free-will. If you mean you can choose anything equally, then no, there is absolutely no free will. If you mean you are free to choose what you desire, yes, there is absolutely free will.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

OK, how do you define Total Depravity? What are the scriptures that lend evidence to the position? I am intrigued if Arminianism and Calvinism teach roughly the same thing.

 

[Reynolds]

As I have always said, it depends on what you mean by free-will. If you mean you can choose anything equally, then no, there is absolutely no free will. If you mean you are free to choose what you desire, yes, there is absolutely free will.

That is why I deeply respect high Calvinism and view general Calvinism as self contradictory. The concepts of Calvinism come with implications and consequences. The doctrine is much more compelling when the consequences are fully embraced. When one seeks to avoid the consequences the argument becomes very uncompelling. It becomes double speak and word Games.
Its not a question of equal choice. Its a question of a choice at all. Do A or Do A is not a choice.
Throughout history "I didnt choose God, God chose me" has been repeated numerous times by Calvinists.

 

[Reynolds]

OK, how do you define Total Depravity? What are the scriptures that lend evidence to the position? I am intrigued if Arminianism and Calvinism teach roughly the same thing.

Total Depravity Verse List

A true Arminian and a true Calvinist both believe man is 100% incapable of coming to God without being given a measure of saving faith. Past that point, the two doctrines diverge quitea bit. In all honesty, that is an oversimplification but its accurate enough.
A lot of Baptists believe man had a remnant of good in him that is awakened by hearing The Gospel. That belief is neither C nor A.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is why I deeply respect high Calvinism and view general Calvinism as self contradictory. The concepts of Calvinism come with implications and consequences. The doctrine is much more compelling when the consequences are fully embraced. When one seeks to avoid the consequences the argument becomes very uncompelling. It becomes double speak and word Games.
Its not a question of equal choice. Its a question of a choice at all. Do A or Do A is not a choice.
Throughout history "I didnt choose God, God chose me" has been repeated numerous times by Calvinists.

I agree. That is why I do not believe you can be a consistent Calvinist and not subscribe to a doctrine of double predestination which is a discussion you and I have had both publically and privately.

 

[Reynolds]

I agree. That is why I do not believe you can be a consistent Calvinist and not subscribe to a doctrine of double predestination which is a discussion you and I have had both publically and privately.

We agree. With that, I am going to sleep.

 

[Reformed1689]

We agree. With that, I am going to sleep.

Blessings my brother.

For others reading this. I wish we could all discourse like @Reynolds and I do. We have disagreements but it never turns personal. At the end of the day I love him as a brother and embrace him. I will be the first to admit that I am part of the problem with some of the discord with regard to this topic. That is something I personally need to work on, but it is refreshing when I get to do things this way.

Have a good night everyone.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Here is a question to ponder before I go to sleep: Did Abram have the choice of faith in God? Of faith to leave to the promised land with everything? Of faith even to the point of sacrificing his son Isaac? Of course, He alone is Called, without God's Calling and His mercy and compassion there is no hope of salvation, so reads Romans 9.

I now see there is the basic question of whether faith is a credit (not a work as the first half of Romans 4 explains) allowed to those who *choose* to put faith in Jesus. Those that must be Called through the preaching of the Gospel and God's compassion and mercy shown them.

It seems everything hinges on another question now: Can God Call but people resist His Call? Is that what is happening with those preached the Gospel that reject it? I believe I have made sense of things if God's will can be resisted, which it can if He wants all to be saved. It makes sense intuitively, I'll make sense of things when wide awake.

I think I may be Arminian in that the 'I' is not irresistible. It is in fact resistible, this must be the case if one believes God wants all to be saved.

 

[Reformed1689]

It seems everything hinges on another question now: Can God Call but people resist His Call? Is that what is happening with those preached the Gospel that reject it? I believe I have made sense of things if God's will can be resisted, which it can if He wants all to be saved. It makes sense intuitively, I'll make sense of things when wide awake.

There is the general call to all men, but not all have ears to hear. This is why man is responsible. Then there is the effectual call where God specifically calls and draws His elect. John said the Father gives specific sheep to Christ the Shepherd. He gives them to Him. They are specifically chosen, a gift.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

There is the general call to all men, but not all have ears to hear. This is why man is responsible. Then there is the effectual call where God specifically calls and draws His elect. John said the Father gives specific sheep to Christ the Shepherd. He gives them to Him. They are specifically chosen, a gift.

I need to do more research then.

I see where you are coming from.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

There is the general call to all men, but not all have ears to hear. This is why man is responsible. Then there is the effectual call where God specifically calls and draws His elect. John said the Father gives specific sheep to Christ the Shepherd. He gives them to Him. They are specifically chosen, a gift.

What of Saul? One who has the Spirit but is forsaken for his rebellion.

 

[Reformed1689]

What of Saul? One who has the Spirit but is forsaken for his rebellion.

Are you referring to King Saul?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Are you referring to King Saul?

Yes, I'm terribly sorry, King Saul of the old testament. There is Saul called Paul, I forgot that this late at night.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'll say one last thing before going to bed. It seems everything in the Arminianism vs Calvinism debate hinges on whether God wants all saved or not. I see very few Calvinist paths forward right now with that belief. Of course, if I do wind up Arminian it will be one with a high view of sovereignty and none of that crazy open theism stuff or "God looked forward in time to see those that loved Him" malarkey.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes, I'm terribly sorry, King Saul of the old testament. There is Saul called Paul, I forgot that this late at night.

If you look at later parts of 1 Samuel it is understood this is not the saving indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is the power of God empowering Saul for His work. Saul, in 1 Sam 18:12 is shown to be fearful because the Lord had departed Him and rested on David. In other words, he was no longer anointed by God as the true king of Israel.

 

[Reformed1689]

I see very few Calvinist paths forward right now with that belief.

That's because Calvinism recognizes the Bible doesn't teach that at all. Read Romans 9.

 

[utilyan]

Again, you are free to choose what you want. In our natural state we do not want righteousness, we do not want God, but if we are chosen, the spirit activates our faith and our desire is turned towards God so that our desire is God and we freely choose what we desire. Our eyes are opened.

So you are not totally depraved but everyone who doesn't subscribe to your belief is. Convenient.

Jesus Christ gave GOOD SAMARITAN as an example of doing right in the eyes of God.

The lose of this capacity is what Calvinism cannot prove with scripture.

Scripture can show all folks sin, People do wrong things, no one is glorious as God. But it can't articulate with scripture alone the false teaching of total depravity.

 

[utilyan]

If God desired all to be saved, all would be saved.

God commands all to not sin ever.

Does GOD DESIRE for you to sin today or tomorrow?

 

[utilyan]

Ah yes, but here is the key... Where does faith come from?

Same place everyone next breathe comes from, good conscience comes from, and everyone moment to moment existence comes from.

Faith comes from no where unique or exclusive compared to everything else.

 

[Aaron]

Hi,

First time on this forum IIRC. I have a big question:

I believe God wants all saved, but that God knows the future state of all souls and many will be damned. I believe this is a paradox because we do not have minds or wisdom like God's.

I draw from Romans 11:32-36 NASB

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [m]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen.

I have been told this is close to the Lutheran view, though different. So, honest question, am I Calvinist or Arminian?

It depends upon whom you see is doing the saving. Was the way opened up and it's up to us to walk in, or were we apprehended and removed from Sodom despite ourselves?

The former presupposes an inherent ability or quality that is absent in those who turn away. In essence, they're their own saviors. Like Marley on his death bed said to Scrooge, "Save yourself." The latter acknowledges the total dependency on God's work in salvation.

If you lean toward the former, you are not a Calvinist. The latter, you are.