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Featured Are all of God's Ten Commandments still valid?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 24, 2014.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #81 DHK, Jan 1, 2015
  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    If we are to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) are we also to keep ALL OT laws?
    Lets begin with tithing - which was some 20+ %
     
    #82 Salty, Jan 1, 2015
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I think we can all agree that even these guys have figured out that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are valid even while the ceremonial laws are fulfilled and ended after the cross.

    "Baptist Confession of Faith"
    "Westminster Confession of Faith"
    C.H. Spurgeon
    Andy Stanley
    Matthew Henry
    [FONT=&quot]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown[/FONT]
    R.C Sproul
    "D.L. Moody"
    "Dies Domini"

    How is it then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship has figured out this same Bible detail that the pro-Saturday Sabbath Christians have figured out?

    It is because the use of the Ten Commandments in both OT and NT indicate that it is the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant, the one Gospel.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #83 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2015
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In the OT the Sabbath is NOT given just to Jews -- neither is the New Covenant just for Israel -- as we all know.

    Is 56
    “How blessed is the man who does this,
    And the son of man who takes hold of it;
    Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
    And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
    3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
    “The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
    Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the Lord,
    “To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
    And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

    6 “Also the foreignerswho join themselves to the Lord,
    To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
    To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
    And holds fast My covenant;
    7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
    For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”


    Is 66:23 even into the New Earth and forever "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down and worship"






    NT:

    Heb 4 - "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"
    1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
    Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH was MADE for mankind"
    Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".
    Rev 14:7 "worship Him who made the heavens and the earth and the springs of water"
    James 2: 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    2Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS to be used for doctrine, reproof and correction..."

    OT:
    Ex 20:11     "For in SIX days the Lord MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all ...THEN He blessed the Sabbath day and made it Holy"
    Is 66:23 regarding the NT New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

    Is 56 - OT application of the Sabbath to GENTILES (never was just for Jews)


    These points are soooo incredibly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the fact that the Sabbath commandment was given to mankind in Eden, and that all TEN commandments are included in God's moral law written on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant.

    Of course the RCC has a concept of "natural law" where the worship of idols and the observance of Sabbath is "said" to be outside that 'natural law'.

    But even they admit that the Decalogue is for all mankind.

    in Christ,

    Bob[/QUOTE]
     
    #84 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2015
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  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This was written to Israel. It was not written for Gentile believers.

    These are instructions given to the nation of Israel, not to Gentile believers.
    When we live in a new earth and a new heaven then you can think about this verse. Not until then. It is a red herring and has nothing to do with this present time.
    Thus, show me from the NT where the Sabbath is applicable to the Gentile believer in this present time. You cannot do it can you?

    There were no local churches in Isaiah 56; no Gentile believers.

    Your relentless copy and paste, copy and paste, copy and paste, of the same SDA lies do not make lies change suddenly into the truth. You are only embarrassing yourself.
    You have put yourself under the law. It is time for you to start obeying the other 613 OT Laws.
     
    #85 DHK, Jan 1, 2015
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In the OT the Sabbath is NOT given just to Jews -- neither is the New Covenant just for Israel -- as we all know.

    Is 56
    “How blessed is the man who does this,
    And the son of man who takes hold of it;
    Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
    And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
    3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
    “The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
    Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the Lord,
    “To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
    And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

    6 “Also the foreignerswho join themselves to the Lord,
    To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
    To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
    And holds fast My covenant;
    7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
    For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”


    Is 66:23 even into the New Earth and forever "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down and worship"


    That is the sort of response that -- is in my view the best possible opposition to the texts provided above when it comes to "all mankind" and "foreigners" in the OT.

    The very best.

    Likely nothing tops it for opposing those texts.

    And that speaks volumes.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #86 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2015
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no Sabbath given to the Gentile believers under the NT covenant. You have not demonstrated that, nor can you. You repetition is vain. Jesus spoke against vain repetitions.
    And so? This is Israel, and still applicable to only Israel. This has no bearing on any person, any Gentile believer in this day and age
    "The foreigner who has joined himself" is a proselyte to the Jewish religion, and thus still an Israelite.
    Are you prejudiced? What do eunuchs have to do with this? You also can become a eunuch. There was an Ethiopian eunuch traveling across the desert. He was a Jew! The sabbath is for the Jews. Read Ex.31.
    To them--the Israelites, whoever they may be.

    All are different classes of Israelites; the Sabbath is for Israel.
    Where is the holy mountain that you worship at?
    What are the burnt offerings and animal sacrifices that you bring?
    This is speaking of Israel, not any NT Gentile believer. Man, do you ever have to contort and twist the scriptures to try and make it applicable for today and the people of this day. The Sabbath is not for the Gentile believer of this day, and you have nothing, not even one verse to demonstrate that it is.
    When there is a new earth and a new heaven, then get back to me. But for now we live on this OLD earth. You still have nothing.

    not even one verse--nada, zero, zilch, nothing!
    Give it up!
     
    #87 DHK, Jan 1, 2015
  8. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Bob should get some bulls and goats for sacrifice
     
    #88 plain_n_simple, Jan 1, 2015
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not according to the majority of even the pro-Sunday scholars.

     
    #89 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2015
  10. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    According to...? Forget men. Read the red words. The greatest commandment to love one another, the Teachers of the Law did not have until Jesus gave it to them. Consider that for a moment.

    I do not need a law to keep me from committing adultery, I love my wife. You cannot follow both ways. This is why Jesus said do not put new wine into and old wineskin, it will not work. Even further we are to be led of the Holy Spirit, not the letter of the law.

    Consider Adam and Eve. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the tree of the law. God did not offer them this fruit. Even after the fall God did not offer the tree of law to anyone. Noah had faith, Abraham walked by faith. It was not until Israel proudly said at the foot of Sinai "We can do whatever you assign us" was the law applied. God said Okay you prideful people, you want it, you got it!

    It was never meant for Gentiles, and is useless and harmful to and for Christians.
     
    #90 plain_n_simple, Jan 1, 2015
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    you mean These?



    Not according to the actual Bible.

    In Matt 22 Jesus said that greatest commandment was to Love God with all the heart and soul - quoting from Moses in Deut 6:5.

    Jesus keeps the same sola scriptura principle with them that He demonstrated in the Mark 7:6-13 quote above.

    And then Jesus give the SECOND greatest commandment in Matt 22 - from Moses' writings in Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

    The Jewish leaders already knew about them.

    None of the Bible scholars (even the pro-sunday ones) I referenced would support the idea that the Jews were not aware of Lev 19:18 or Deut 6:5 until Christ read it to them. I am sure you too would agree with this.


    And in one case one of their Lawyers fully admits that they knew these two were the greatest.

    Jesus said that ALL of the OT - all the Law AND the prophets had this as their rock solid immutable foundation.

    God said He writes this Law on the heart in the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant - also in the NT - in Heb 8


    Until you read Is 56 -quoted above -specifically given to the foreigners.

    Until you read Is 66:23 - specifically for "all mankind"

    Until you read the words of Christ in Mark 2:27 "MADE for Mankind"

    Until you read Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the LAW of God"

    Until you read Eph 6:1 where the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN that we find in Ex 20.

    Until you read 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

    Question: how much of the OT and NT do you need to cut out to hold to your doctrinal position??

    As for red letters - my NASB/NKJV Bible says "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine, correction and reproof" 2Tim 3:16

    I think your Bible makes the same statement.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #91 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2015
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  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    An admission that man is your authority and not God, not the Scriptures.
     
    #92 DHK, Jan 2, 2015
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If your new argument is that I only believe what pro-sunday scholars tell me to believe - then you have not thought your position through and do not expect the majority of readers here to take your post seriously.

    The texts listed above "speak for themselves" for those Bible students that take the time to read them.

    The fact that this Bible detail is soooo incredibly glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to it, is icing the on the cake and debunks your post that said I am the only one that notices this Bible detail.
     
    #93 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2015
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  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I have "debunked" as you say, everyone of your texts.
    You just won't admit it. You have nothing to stand on.
     
    #94 DHK, Jan 2, 2015
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed you have, dismissed, ignored and rejected text after text -- I never argued that you have not done that. To each his own.
     
    #95 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2015
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "Debunked" was the word used; debunked and refuted. You have no answer.
    There is no command in the NT that a Gentile believer is obligated to keep the Sabbath. You haven't provided one, and cannot. You have failed miserably and all reading this thread can see it.

    The other evident tact that most notice is that you have put yourself under the Law. Now just be consistent and start obeying the other 613 laws of the OT.

    But be careful. The warning is given in Galatians 3:
    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
     
    #96 DHK, Jan 2, 2015
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Galatians 3:10
    "For as many as are (righteous) by (their own) works of the Law (of God) are under the curse (of God's Law): for it is written (in God's Law), Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the Book of the Law (of God) to do them."

    That's right! "For the Law (of God) is for the transgressors" against God and against his Law. So beware if you trample on the Sabbath Day of God's Law. Rather as you delight yourself in the Lord of the Sabbath and love Him above all, "call the Sabbath your delight" and love HIM far above his Holy Day because you are not righteous by your own 'keeping of the Sabbath' but in Christ's magnifying and honouring of it, He having raised from the dead on it.

    It therefore is to despise and deny and trample underfoot both the Commandment and the Lord’s Resurrection, to refuse and reject that “God thus concerning the Seventh Day, spake”, “when He raised Christ from the dead”, “on the Sabbath”, and “by virtue of having finished all his works, rested."

    Bob Ryan and DHK are in accord. They concerning the Sabbath think and believe no different. They both believe God honoured Sunday rather with Christ's Resurrection from the dead. That's the crux!
     
    #97 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 3, 2015
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  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The nonsense that DHK and I are in one accord on this topic is pretty hard to take seriously.

    But the fact that the Ten Commandments are indeed the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant is sooo glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship can see it.

    They freely admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are valid even while the ceremonial laws are fulfilled and ended after the cross.

    "Baptist Confession of Faith"
    "Westminster Confession of Faith"
    C.H. Spurgeon
    Andy Stanley
    Matthew Henry
    [FONT=&quot]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown[/FONT]
    R.C Sproul
    "D.L. Moody"
    "Dies Domini"

    How is it then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship has figured out this same Bible detail that the pro-Saturday Sabbath Christians have figured out?

    It is because the use of the Ten Commandments in both OT and NT indicate that it is the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant, the one Gospel.
     
    #98 BobRyan, Jan 3, 2015
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Deceitfulness is the same as lying.
    Everyone of those men whom you quoted either have directly quoted being distanced from the SDA beliefs, or would have. I have already quoted Moody's statement on this. He states very plainly that he in no way agrees with the SDA. Thus you are dishonest in associating yourself with these men and their positions on the Sabbath. Not one of them agrees with you, neither do any of the Confessions of Faith, which you simply misinterpret for your own convenience. Simply dishonesty on display here.

    No, we don't agree here. Your position is heretical.
    The Sabbath is not for today. The law has been abolished.
    We are no longer under the Law. A very good book to read on this subject is one that is called "Galatians." Have you heard of it? I highly recommend it.

    Those who live under the law and are determined to keep it, are cursed.
    They live by another gospel, which is not a gospel. The author of this book says about such that they are "accursed."
    You should read this book, study this book very carefully.
     
    #99 DHK, Jan 3, 2015
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Bob Ryan, for how many years now have you abused Sunday believers' conception of the Fourth Commandment?

    You can only echo Mrs White and cringe before your General Conference.

    Arguing for the Sabbath which JESUS, "made" having been the Conquering LORD through RESURRECTION from the dead ON THE SABBATH, with the Law of God written in stone and on the heart of Moses, is arguing AGAINST it, DENYING Jesus' Lordship through Victory over the LAST ENEMY, DEATH, “in (with) Sabbath’s fullness of fulfilment” – ‘opse sabbatohn’.

    Herein DHK has a more Christian view of the Sabbath than you. And a more honest one than yours.

    “Gott hat uns den Sabbat geschenkt, damit wir das Evangelium hautnah erfahren“… is what ‘Sunday theologians’ say! They have a better enjoyment of the Sabbath than anyone who believes the Law stripped of the blood laws but otherwise the same old dead-letter-Law can imagine.

    Bob Ryan, I am telling you today, the Seventh-day Adventists do not believe the Law or the Sabbath minus <the ceremonial laws>--there does not exist anything like it. They <<keep the Sabbath>> emptied of its “SUBSTANCE WHICH IS CHRIST”.

    You SDAs actually so HATE “Sabbaths’ Feast of CHRIST the Substance” of it that Seventh-day Adventist forums BLOCK THE WORD OF IT OUT and all congregations worldwide are FORBIDDEN to allow the sound of it in them.

    Here you have a Baptist, Sunday-keeping forum, allowing me, to voice my faith that Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath and not on Sunday, but the Seventh-day Adventists KILL THE MESSENGER of the Message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the life-giving truth that He rose from the dead the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES --- which was: "ON THE SABBATH".

    It is a shame.

    It is a heart-breaking spectacle of pathos, irony and satire in mourning at the Burial of TRUTH.
     
    #100 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 3, 2015
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