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Featured Are all of God's Ten Commandments still valid?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 24, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Nor does the NT teach that under the New Covenant, that we are bound to obey the 10 commandments as the means to have us gain merit before God and receive salvation, as that is ONLY achieved by the shed blood of jesus upon the Cross for our sins, and to receive that justification by faith alone in him!

    This entire OP sems to be under Judaizing the Gospel!
     
    #41 Yeshua1, Dec 29, 2014
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    To simply "infer" that one of God's Commandments has ceased is a pretty big deal when you look at the way Christ hammered the religious leaders of his day for simply trying to set one aside in Mark 7:6-13.

    No doubt there are many forms of "rest" in the Bible and not all of them are about the 7th day Sabbath commandment.

    But in Heb 4 the case is made that the same rest - the same Sabbath as is referenced in the Psalms by David "remains".

    There is nothing in Heb 4 that says "but now and not when David spoke - we can ignore the Sabbath commandment" -- or anything close to it.

    What we do have is the Is 66:23 statement that the Sabbath (defined as something Jeremiah and his readers would have known -- if using exegesis to interpret the text) - is kept by all mankind even into the New Heavens and New Earth (as Is 66:23 states) and that period is identified by John in Rev 21:1-4 specifically as pertaining to after the end of the 1000 years.

    So then - all mankind would have to include you and me and Paul in that future-to-1000 years context.

    It would be hard to argue that this is because our rest in Christ has ended and we are reduced to our own works at that point.

    In fact it would be hard to argue that was a works-based Gospel in the OT that is the "One gospel" of Gal 1 in all ages. Paul says in Heb 4 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them also" and in Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" and in Gal 1:6-9 only one Gospel - in all of time. Thus even Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in Matt 17 -- all stand there by the grace found in the One Gospel.

    The New Covenant includes the "Law of God" written on the heart according to Jeremiah - and this is quoted in Heb 8 without modification - the same Law that Jeremiah would have known continues - written on the heart and the mind.

    The only change we see in the NT is the change in Heb 10 regarding ceremonies in sacrifice - and in Eph 2 the Law in ceremony that divides gentiles from Jews.

    Given that both Gentiles and Jews are in the group "mankind" mentioned by Christ in Mark 2:27 and in Is 66:23 as pertaining to the NEW Earth - even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to this mankind-wide scope for the Ten Commandments - and specifically the Sabbath Commandment.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #42 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Ditto. Good articulations.
     
    #43 kyredneck, Dec 29, 2014
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Tevor - certainly you and I would both agree that eschatology is an important area of Bible study.

    But consider this -

    I think that you and I would both agree that the majority of pro-sunday scholarship are not accepting this idea of the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God binding on all mankind -- including the Sabbath Commandment - because they are all SDAs or they view eschatology in the same way as SDAs do.

    Agreed?

    My claim here is that on 6 of their own points - we (SDAs and other Sabbath keeping groups) agree with them.

    That common ground is not based on agreement in eschatology in all areas - as I am sure you would admit.

    Thus as the OP points out - all these groups agree that -

    10 Commandments are –
    “Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
    “Law of God” Neh 10:29
    “Word of God” Mark 7:13
    “Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
    NT “Scripture” James 2:8
    NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
    NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    If we look at each case -- the NT scriptures above do in fact quote from the TEN Commandments, so also Romans 7, and Romans 13.

    And the Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart and soul" commandments quoted by Christ in Matt 22 - did not nullify the TEN commandments before the cross - and are not stated as doing so after the cross. Thus no NT author just quotes those 2 and nothing else.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #44 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
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  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    We can see quotes from the Sabbath Commandment in numerous places in the NT - but no quote at all of the 3rd commandment against taking God's name in vain.

    We are still bound by that commandment to not take God's name in vain even though it is never quoted in the NT - because there is not such Bible teaching that "whatever is not constantly repeated - is to be deleted" -

    Which is another reason the third commandment against taking God's name in vain does not show up in the Acts 15 decision for the Gentiles.

    There is simply no Bible teaching at all of the form "assume it is deleted if you don't see it quoted again".
     
    #45 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The sabbath was given unto israel proper to keep before God, under old covenant, and NOT regiven to us now inder the new One!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Dec 29, 2014
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    under the New Covenant (according to Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8) the Law is written on the heart instead of abolished or made void.

    "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31 -- the same law that Romans 3 says condemns all the world under sin.

    When contrasting the ceremonial law with the moral law of God -- Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" -- of which the 5th commandment "is the first Commandment with a promise" Eph 6 according to Paul.

    No wonder when Christ quotes from the Ten Commandments in the New Testament - he calls it "the Word of God" still to be honored - in Mark 7:6-13 and not set aside.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #47 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
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  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We are not under "The Law," as such. The only "Law" that Christ gave us that is related to The Ten," is summarized here:

    [FONT=&quot]Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/FONT]

    --There is no Sabbath Day commandment here. It has nothing to do with a Gentile loving God or loving his neighbor.
    However, if we love God, we will not profane his name or take it in vain.
    If a person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit how can he take the Lord's name in vain, and still call himself "filled with Spirit."
    The command is there in its various forms, probably repeated more times than any other command. If you don't recognize it, then you are not looking at the Bible with spiritual eyes.

    [FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.[/FONT]

    Just a few verses out of one chapter speak to this one command of not taking the Lord's name in vain. Obey these commands and you will never take the Lord's name in vain.
     
    #48 DHK, Dec 29, 2014
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those who have been saved by grace, AND are walking in the Holy Spiriting empowering will indeed be doing the "works of the law", but that is due to them being new in Christ, as His is living in and through them now, NOT as doing those things to merit or keep favor with God!

    Are we saved eternally at the rebirth, a finished and done deal, or do we still have to wait until after death to see "if we made it in?"
     
    #49 Yeshua1, Dec 29, 2014
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day.
    This is a command given specifically to Israel. See Exodus 31.
    Now, when will you start obeying the rest of the 613 OT commands?
     
    #50 DHK, Dec 29, 2014
  11. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    :applause::applause:"Now, when will you start obeying the rest of the 613 OT commands? "
     
    #51 plain_n_simple, Dec 29, 2014
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No wait! you are saying that we can trade in the 1050 commands given in the NT and just keep the 613 in the OT?

    (What limit has been put on God in that regard? -- and who did it?)

    Was it simply by "popular demand"?? :)
     
    #52 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No. You have made it very clear that it is YOUR demand that YOU MUST keep that Sabbath.
    The NT gives no such command. If it did you would be able to produce one, but you can't.
    Here is what the Bible says:

    [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
    --The Law has 613 commands in it.
    You must keep them from birth to death continuously. If you break only one command, just one time in your entire life you are cursed--for all eternity cursed. You have put yourself under the law, and therefore under ALL the Law. You cannot escape from it. You can only have it one way. It is either all the Law, or none.

    For me I chose grace; I am under grace.
    I am not under the Law but grace.
    Such is not the case with you. You have a much harder road to follow. One sin, one transgression in your entire life--and you are cursed with no hope of salvation. The Law cannot save. It only brings condemnation.
     
    #53 DHK, Dec 29, 2014
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Many of us who are under the New Covenant with the Law of God written in our hearts - consider that to be "under grace".

    Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8 make that clear.

    Which may be another reason why even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind in all ages.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #54 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is nothing "moral" about whether or not to keep the Sabbath Day. It is not a part of the moral law. It was never written on the heart of man. How would an illiterate pygmy in Africa know just from his heart that the Sabbath should be holy and be honored and kept. He doesn't. It is not "on his heart." But the commands of "do not murder; do not commit adultery;" etc. are written on his heart. Those commands are the moral law of God, not the Sabbath Day. The Sabbath was given to Israel, and only Israel.
     
    #55 DHK, Dec 29, 2014
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. Illiterate pygmies do not know not to worship their little images/idols. That is not proof that God did not speak the TEN Commandents or that the Sabbath was not "made for mankind" as Christ said in Mark 2:27, nor is it proof that idols and false gods really are not all that bad.

    I think we all see that point clearly.

    2. What is not 'moral' is choosing to be at war with the Law of God - according to John in 1John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

    A few of the many reasons why even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral Law of God.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #56 BobRyan, Dec 29, 2014
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't think anyone sees your point at all, not even "foggily."
    [FONT=&quot]Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:[/FONT]
    --They have no excuse not to know about God, about his MORAL LAW, which does not include the Sabbath. All societies around the world know it is wrong to murder and steal. But they don't intrinsically know that there is supposed to one day specifically holy to a specific God. That is not part of God's moral law. You cannot prove that.
    In fact you cannot even find one verse in the entire NT that commands Gentiles, believers or not, to keep the Sabbath. That in and of itself, is proof that the Sabbath is not part of the moral law. We are not under the Sabbath law. It is not a command that we are obliged to keep. It is for the Israelites alone.
    How many of the 613 OT laws are you at war with?
    And many don't. I rely on the authority of the Word of God, not a popularity contest. :rolleyes:
     
    #57 DHK, Dec 30, 2014
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Even more specifically God covenanted Himself to the children of Israel --- He is not your God according to YOURSELF.


     
    #58 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Dec 30, 2014
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you see salvation has something that is right now a finished and done thing by God, or that we must keep those Commandments in order to have God see ourselves found worthy to merit keeping saved?
     
    #59 Yeshua1, Dec 30, 2014
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We see that the 10 Commandments revel to us the Moral law of god, but we do NOT see that we are bound to keep all of them in the same sense as you do, and few holding to Sunday worship would see that as a "requirement" in order to allow God to keep us really saved, as you do on the sabbath!
     
    #60 Yeshua1, Dec 30, 2014
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