That's in my set of questions :)
Are Heaven and Paradise the same?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 6, 2009.
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Oh yeah, huh?
We shouldn't read too much into Eccleasteses 12:7. It says a person's dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The verse attempts to differentiate between our physical selves and our spiritual selves.
In regards to my question of where the souls of the dead went when the body died, the answer is that souls went to Sheol (sometimes translated "the grave", sometimes translated "hell", but different from the "Lake of Fire"). To understand Sheol to the Jewish mind requires a grasp of Jewish cosmology (not just Jewish philosophy). In short, both righteous and unrighteous souls went to Sheol. -
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The fact is, the Bible is not clear about where Paradise is and therefore, it can be argued either way (Paradise is or is not heaven), imo. But I think that Paradise being heaven makes more sense.
I think what this word meant in Jewish context would be important.
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The 'into heaven' for Elijah does not refer necessarily to God's abode known as the third heaven though it 'could' but in the Hebrew there were 3 heavens. One was the sky, one is where the stars are, and the 'third heaven' is the abode of God. Here however I believe it refers to the sky as it is a whirlwind/firy chariot that picks him 'up' and into heaven. If you watch a tornado pick something up and take it into the sky, we would say 'sky' but the Hebrew word is 'heaven'. Since we both understand that context determines how a word is used, and the context here refers to Elishah watching what is happening and describing it in the manner of a 'whirlwind/chariot' going up, the context here is dealing with the sky during the daylight hours. So if Elijah was picked up and leaving our atmosphere he would slowly vanish from sight.
Now here is the problem with them or any OT saints being in third heaven before Christ's death and resurrection. Sin can not enter heaven without immediately being judged. Hebrews in the NT says that the OT sacrifices 'did not take away sin' but only covered it. It is the same as saying a person is covered with sewage but put over it a long clean white robe. It doesn't take away the stench or uncleaness of it only covers it for a time. The other problem here is that the coat is now defiled as well since unclean thing contaminate clean things but never does the clean affect the unclean in the same manner. Therefore though their sins were covered they were not removed and thus they can not and could not enter heaven without having their sins 'removed'. Which is what Christ sacrifice did, it removed the sin completely.
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... You can demonstrate your twinkle toes until the cows come home but God will not shrug and pass your false teaching off as cute. Pleasedo not claim not to be teaching, yu posted the message and Satan did not make you do it Mr. Wilson.
... I never judged you as a lost man, that is not area, it belongs to God. I compared your publishing style with that of the lost man and still you shoot from the hip, build straw men ad avoid the scriptures like the plague. As for the scriptures being the opinions of men, all I can say is that you need t fall back five yards and punt. (2Tim. 3:16) All scripture is breathed by God.
... Now, about discerning the state of a man's salvation. As a Christian I know, from studying the scriptures, these past 18+ years that a man's spiritual condition is made known by the fruit he or she bears. Sir, your fruit stinks! My best assessment of your spiritual condition from this short encounter does not lead me to believe that I be seated at the wedding table with you, short of repentance on your part. -
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... The text you have posted has naught t do with the issue you choose to dispute. -
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I've read several of Webdog's post and although I might not agree with everything he and others say on here, I do believe I will meet him in Heaven. I consider him a fellow adopted son of God. To accuse a man of false teaching and questioning his salvation over scriptures than can be and are confusing to some of us is very dangerous ground. The last I heard this is a debate forum and not a Judgment forum . Bill you started this thread with a chip on your shoulder and I pray that you don't leave this thread with a chip on your shoulder. Lets bring Glory to God and not ourselves, thats something that we have all been guilty of at one time or another.
God's grace to you and your family, Billy -
This does not say the spirits of the righteous but in fact it refers to ALL spirits will in fact come back or come before God. It refers to the fact that just as all men will die, all men will come before God.
I have seen you quote Keil & Delitzsch before and would suggest looking at their commentary on it. There are others who agree concerning 'this' passage but I'm just showing I'm not the only one :) -
Second, just because you hold to a certain perspective and find that it works with some scripture does not mean it true concerning the whole of scripture. This is where speaking to each other in kindness and love allows us to prove or reprove each other in the truth. It just might in the very least, cause us to go back and look again at what we believe from another view point to see if what we hold does in fact hold fast.
Third, your rhetoric is rather harsh and ungodly itself and would be benificial to you to tone it down. Web can hold his own and his understanding with respect to his view is not 'from the hip' or what I call 'willy-nilly'. If you want to change his view you need a more solid and in depth presentation than just your statements and small presentation whereby you expect others to just receive it as truth. There isn't enough there in the Op to really make any such change.
Fourth, It is against the Rules of the BB to declare or openly presume a person is unsaved. However, your judgment is poor at best if your short interaction with Web has lead you to believe such about him. His interaction with you is no different in any manner than yours with him. Web is a brother in Christ however he not a false teacher since in scripture you will find that they know they are wrong but do so in order to lead others from the faith. You might actually be meaning falsely or incorrectly teaching something but there are worlds of diffence between the two. -
th1bill - I agree with Allan that I find your attitude and words here quite bothersome. I'd ask that you pray before you type to be sure that the Spirit is affecting your words and not your own will.
When Jesus was on the cross, He said "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and He died. Where did His spirit go? -
This reflects David's prophetic statement of God not leaving His soul in sheol.
Sheol or the 'place of the dead' refers to both the physical and spiritual aspects at the same time. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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I don't wish to take sides, but I must concur. There was, at the very least, an implication of judging one's salvation without merit. That statement should be retracted, and an apology issued.
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The place of the dead for the OT people... Sheol...
Sheol was seperated by 2 compartments.. .Paradise, and Hell. (Fire and punishment)
Luke 16 gives a great look at the two.
Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was a holding tank for the righteous.. those who had faith that God was sending a Messiah...
Hell for the unrighteous...
Paradise and Hell were seperated by a great gulf.. .Luke 16.
When Jesus descended into Paradise, he released the righteous and took them (The first fruits) to the Third Heaven. He moved Paradise to Heaven during his ascension.
Today... Saved go directly to the Third Heaven upon death.. they are present with God.
The Lost go to Hell.. which is still where it was in the OT... but will be delivered up at the Great White throne Judgment, then will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
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