Can't you think of a new lie SP? How many times must you keep saying blatantly false things? I must have told you dozens of times that any true believer of Christ is elect -- whether Calvinist, or not.
Hey, I have a suggestion for you ( aside from listening to old Rogers sermons) tell the truth once in a while about Calvinists. How bout' that?
are there different kinds of calvinists?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by nodak, May 26, 2008.
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Turns out Arminius was a 3 point calvinist his points of conflict were I believe free will and election. Anyhow much of calvinism is biblical and most folks are calvinists of one type or another.
Most folks who call themselves calvinists are referring to the tulip acrostic and not to the Institutes of Religion written by Calvin. So they are not actually calvinists at all but tulips.:laugh: -
drfuss: I have gone over all the posts and have not seen the following resentments about Calvinists. Calvinists use terms that imply a misrepresentation of what others believe. For example:
Doctrines of Grace - All Christians believe in the doctrine of grace. By calling Calvinism "The Doctrines of Grace", the Calvinists imply a misrepresentation of what others believe, by suggesting that others don't believe in God's grace. This arrogance on the part of Calvinists is naturally resented and shows a lack of consideration for other Christians.
Sovereignty of God - All Christians believe that God is completely sovereign. Yet, many Calvinists say that Calvinists believe God is more sovereign than what Non-Calvinists believe. Again, Calvinists misrepresent what others believe.
Faith - Some Calvinists indicate that accepting Christ as Savior is an act of man's work. They continue that anyone who believes accepting Christ as Savior is necessary for salvation, is depending on man's work for salvation. Again a gross misrepresentation of what Non-Calvinists believe.
Etc.
Is it any wonder that others consider Calvinists arrogant, aggressive and inconsiderate? -
Bob Farnaby Active MemberSite Supporter
I agree Bill, personally I feel a great hesitancy to call myself a Calvanist, not because i have any problems with the 'five points' stuff, but because of the issues of baptism, church government, church/state relationships. With these three i find myself way different to Calvin. Shows the importance of going back to the scripture and seeking to see and understand what it says.
Regards
Bob -
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Nope, they are all the same. None of them will listen and they think they know everything... :BangHead: :BangHead:
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2 good books to read, "Why I am not a Calvinist" and"why I am not an Arminian". This could round out our thinking a little.
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drfuss: From the OP:
"I have had very little experience with calvinists. The calvinists I have known in real life (very few) were extremely bombastic, argumentative, domineering, fundamentalistic, holier than thou, and very very unloving. All pointed to knowing they were saved by their good works, rather than by their faith.
From that I assumed their attitudes, beliefs, and actions were reflective of calvinism itself."
drfuss: Doctrines of Grace - All Christians believe in the doctrine of grace. By calling Calvinism "The Doctrines of Grace", the Calvinists imply a misrepresentation of what others believe, by suggesting that others don't believe in God's grace. This arrogance on the part of Calvinists is naturally resented and shows a lack of consideration for other Christians.
Rippon: This has been dealt with a lot before. The term "Doctrines of Grace" has been with us for centuries. It has been another momenclature for Calvinists -- those who hold to the doctrine(s) of grace. There are 10's of thousands of websites which use the term referring to Calvinists. You've got your work cut out for you if you want to stop the usage of the term.
And specifically the Doctrines of Grace have an approach to Scripture with which non-Cals would object.You, as a non-Cal maintain you believe in grace, but the way you define it is distinctly different than the way a Calvinist understands it.
drfuss: Sovereignty of God - All Christians believe that God is completely sovereign. Yet, many Calvinists say that Calvinists believe God is more sovereign than what Non-Calvinists believe. Again, Calvinists misrepresent what others believe.
Rip: No, many non-Cals give the sovereignty of God lip-service only. They sometimes even outline what they consider the areas of his sovereignty, and where He does not exercise His sovereignty. They even maintain "man's sovereignty"!!So, on the issue of God's sovereignty many Christians do deny openly are by implication His full sovereignty. How many would agree with the perspective of AWP's book "The Sovereignty of God" for instance?"Aw, Pink goes too far", many non-Cals say.In other words God is not THAT sovereign?
drfuss: The OP indicated attitude problems with Calvinists and questioned if their atitudes were reflective of Calvinism itself. You just showed that the bad misrepresentations by Calvinists are reflective of Calvinism itself, and it has been that way for years.
I was not trying to be difficult, just answering the OP's question about the nature of Calvinism. Thanks for demonstrating my answer so well.
I realize that the Calvinists will not change their misleading terms: it seems to have been that way from the beginning. I suspect that most Calvinists don't realize how they come across when using these standardized misleading terms.
Peace. -
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
This ongoing problem between Calvinists and Non-Cals are fleshly. You guys are "in the flesh" yet. Both of you are carnal. Corinthians. And even worse, you try to portray one another as either inferior or arrogant.
On a lighter note, you remind me of a joke circulating among Filipinos back when the Muslim insurgency was at its strongest and body bags were being brought home by the gross every day on both sides.
A reporter asked a Muslim fighter when peace could finally be restored. The fighter replied "when the army surrenders". -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
double post.
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2) Then, on top of that, they constantly claim that others don't understand Calvinism, "doctrines of Grace," etc. (less edu-ma-cated :laugh:) is why they don't know the Bible and God. Well, I understand the "Wonderful One Hoss Shea" and I understand the Bible --- and there's not many points of convergence.
There is IMO a sore need for Calvinists 1) to understand the triunity of the nature of man (Body, soul, spirit) especially as it applies to sotierology but also to sanctification; 2) to understand the parables and mysteries of God; 3) to understand dispensationalism, the covenants of God, and eschatology rightly dividing the word
One place where Calvinism has it PATENTLY wrong is in sotierology where they deem the OT saints to have been saved by being "regenerated" as well!.
To me, they carry on totally oblivious to some of the most important issues in scripture! It's almost like filling up your "college schedule" (life here on earth) with ELECTIVES and avoiding the core courses they need to make an "eternal career!" I mean, in my view, Calvinism is basically "cocktail" information whose main thrust is "Why bother? We can't do anything to effect God's sovereign 'program' anyway. Que sera, sera."
skypair -
As you can tell by this simple example, there is a HUGE disconnect between theoretical Calvinism and real life Calvinism. In fact, in real life there is almost no practical use for theoretical Calvinism unless you are trying to make the church the political "state."
skypair -
But Paul apparently isn't going to get his way when it comes to Calvinists, is he? They're clearly very proud of how they have divided the church in that they keep that title "out there" for all to see.
I sincerely enjoy discussing our different perspectives of each individual issue. We all have our strengths and weaknesses in our "knowledge and faith of the Son of God." (Eph 4:13) But at some point I believe we all have to abandon "pet theories" of we'll never in this life "come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."
skypair -
I believe one angle that we have not addressed that may bring "closure" is the fact that God in 3 Persons operates differently than any of us have considered when giving our views of "God's this" and "God's that."
I'll sketch out a thread and see what develops. :godisgood:
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skypair said:But it does not seem as if my Calvinist counterparts are pursuing "knowledge and faith" of the same God.
Rip: Those kinds of statements are proof of your wackiness.
The heart of the matter for me is that Calvinism can't answer the question that is plain as the nose on your face about Christianity -- "How does God chose whom He does to salvation?" And if we can't know that as even RC Sproul admits Calvies can't and Calvin says we ought not look into, then how can we ever have assurance of salvation?
Rip: So I suppose you willfully chose to disregard Deuteronomy 29:29: "The LORD our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions."( NLTse). We simply are not privy to all of God's innner workings. The Lord chooses to reveal some things through His Word. Other things He did not deem proper for us to be informed about this side of glory.Can you accept that the Lord does things simply because it pleased Him to do so, without asking for your permission?
But Calvies will insist that its the "elect from before the foundation of the world"
Rip: Yes, because it happens to be perfectly biblical.Ya' got a problem with that?!
we can never be sure this side of heaven if we are a "chosen one" nor can we, according to Calvinism, DO anything about it. In fact, I've had 'em tell me you can believe all you want but it is false belief unless you are truly "elect" and can, thus, understand spiritual things
Rip: Do the words "These things I have written unto you that you might believe ..." mean anything to you?! People without the Spirit can't receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.See 1 Cor. 2:14 for clarification.If one is a child of God, one is elect. I seem to have to repeat this in every post to you Mr. Doubter. You do seem to be in some anxiety to verify if your election and calling are legitimate.
Our parents understood a lot more than we give them credit for and that seems to be the relationship here between me and some of my detractors.
Rip: What a hoot! You I take it are supposed to be the parent ? :)
the doctrines of grace whereby they got "dragged" to Christ
Rip: You do not even qualify as a slow learner -and that's giving you a lot of leeway.My posts are simply correcting your deliberate lies. No Calvinist here on the BB says or implies that we are "dragged to Christ." Stop telling falsehoods. Start being honest.
it seems to me quite obvious that you couldn't believe what you do if it had to fit into what the Bible says.
Rip: You were speaking to David with this remark of yours. This is typical Skypairism. So David, and by extension, all Calvinists could not possibly believe the way we do if we simply believed the Bible instead of our "system" or some such characterization you might come up with. What patent nonsense. We believe what we do because the Bible tells us so!We did not invent these truths, nor did we discover them because Calvin, Gill or Owen said so.Deal truthfully SP.Click to expand...
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