But Romans 9 is about service, not about salvation. Every analogy Paul uses in that chapter has to do with a defense of God's sovereign use of Israel to accomplish His purposes. It has nothing to do with who is or is not saved.
Honorable and dishonorable vessels have to do with degrees of service. The potter analogy shows that potter is sovereign over the clay to make it into what he wants. The same lump of clay that could be made into a vase that sits in Buckingham Palace is also the same clay that can be made into a bed pan. It can be used for honorable or ignoble purposes.
God can use one person to be a great leader and someone else for lesser more humble purpose. God NEVER ordains anyone to Hell.
Paul refers to those who are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. But in the Greek, God is not the one preparing them for destruction. The word "prepared" is in the middle voice. That means that it refers to what someone has done to themselves. Pharaoh made himself a vessel prepared for destruction. God did not create him that way.
So no, you still have NO passages that says God causes some people to go to Hell.
Ask in Sunday School
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by agedman, Jun 16, 2019.
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GoodTidings Well-Known Member
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From that same Romans 11 it states further:
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.You stated, “ No, God does not choose Hell as the destiny for some and you have NO Scripture to back up that nonsense.”
This statement is refuted by Christ who said, “...those who believe not are condemned already ...”
Therefore, most certainly God does choose hell as the destiny for some - He has “already.” -
GoodTidings Well-Known Member
You still have nothing to support that heretical statement. -
Pharaoh had not “ability to change his mind” much less his heart (core character).
Such a statement is a futile attempt to present God as less than unchangeable, and presenting humankind as some super authority that humans can thwart the very God Creator Sustainer. -
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GoodTidings Well-Known Member
I have the power to hurt an infant child. But I don't have the will to do so. There is nothing in my mind or heart tha would prompt me to do that. Pharaoh had the power to change his mind and obey the Lord and do what the Lord told him to do. That does not thwart God at all. God knows that Pharaoh would not change his mind and he didn't. Nothing in that at all about thwarting God.
That's just you trying to assign false values to my words. A rather dishonest debate tactic. -
GoodTidings Well-Known Member
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We can retreat to an argument about the Hebrew, but most translators translate it that way -- that, so, so that. Maybe they don't know, either. Ultimately we must "retreat" to the simple statement of God that is active, "I will," not passive. He is talking about something he will do.
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Does He not order by stating all shall bow, yet also state all have turned to their wickedness? -
Isaiah states they thought they were doing the very honorable righteousness of God. BUT it was not so in God’s plan.
Your presentation on this thread consistently removes God from the Sovereign final authority over all, who knows every thought and intent of every heart, and the one who decides how and the priority of those thoughts and intents, and makes Him a weakness of a lesser god submissive to the bound in sin and death human will of humankind. -
This has actually devolved into a semantic difference of opinion concerning the definition of “ordained”.
No Calvinist believes that people are inherently GOOD, so God must shove some EVIL into their hearts. God can merely remove restraints and allows the natural evil in the human heart to have more of its way. (Like God granting permission for Satan to attack Job and setting limits “this far and no further”.) -
Seriously?
I am ancient and no longer scholarly in the original languages but rely upon others to validate my work.
I need to see you produce the proof in another thread (this one closes soon) that others of scholarly merit may validate your interpretation.
It does seem that the translations place the action of ongoing as one who commands. -
GoodTidings Well-Known Member
I am not retreating to an argument about the Hebrew. I simply pointing out that the Hebrew doesn't say what you're saying God said. -
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Again, I call others who remain scholars to kindly instruct if I have failed to maintain the accuracy. I submit to correct scholarship.
There is not even the hint pharaoh could do other than God’s statement. God made pharaoh’s heart hard, and unchangeable so that He would be glorified by signs.
That sort of puts a finish to your view.
It has been dealt with philosophically, by proper Scripture use, and even correcting you thinking allowing for room that perhaps pharaoh could have a change of heart.
I am too tired to contend further. -
GoodTidings Well-Known Member
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GoodTidings Well-Known Member
The text also says in places that Pharaoh continued to harden his own heart, which is also part of the issue, and you seemed to not want to accept that fact. God was not doing to Pharaoh anything that he had not already done to himself, as well. There are two things going on with Pharaoh. He is being hardened by God as a result of God's actions, but Pharaoh's own pride was also in play.
Pharaoh, even before God started hardening his heart, was already full of pride and was not going to obey the word of the Lord in Exodus 5. So hardening process in Pharaoh had already begun by the time the Lord started hardening him. -
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GoodTidings Well-Known Member
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